The Sebenza keeps custom knife prices down.

stjames

stjames

Sebenzanista
Joined
Oct 26, 1998
Messages
6,465
It is often pointed out that for very near the cost of a Sebenza you can purchase a well made custom frame-lock by great makers the likes of Mike Obenauf, Rick Hinderer and RJ Martin, Gentlemen all. In some recent discussion of last weekends knife show in Las Vegas something came up that I have always wondered about; Why don’t hand made knives cost more? True, many popular and sought after custom knife makers sell their products for a higher amount, but it has taken them an investment in years of making and traveling to achieve their reputation and level of success.

In discussing the knife making process with various makers and reading countless articles on the subject over the years it seems that making a decent folder takes no small amount of time as well as an investment in equipment, materials and the overhead of power and workspace. A full time maker must also act as a small business and cover insurance, healthcare and (hopefully) retirement costs for his family and deal with the promotion and distribution of his product, with dealers taking a cut on anything he doesn’t sell directly to the customer.

All in all it seems that the profit margin per knife must be fairly tight, and if considered as an hourly wage with benefits knifemaking is not nearly as lucrative as most trades and professions these highly skilled individuals could be involved in. I’m sure they love what they do, but if they could make more money doing it they might love it even more.

So why don’t these knives have a higher cost to the end user? The answer is “They cost what the Market will bear.” And why won’t the market bear a higher cost for a custom made frame-lock? It is because the standard has always been set by the cost and quality of the knife that popularized the genre, the Chris Reeve Sebenza.

____________________________________
James Segura
Sacramento, CA
 
So I guess custom framelocks are pointless if they can't exceed the Sebenza in prices or performance. Perhaps the makers should shift their efforts to a form of blade that hasn't yet been perfected. It would be a terrible waste for these talented men to end up buried in the red continuing to pursue such an effort and not getting fair return on their labors.
 
I imagine I will have to handle a Sebenza to appreciate it. I do not like the looks from the pictures...

I know that's ignorence talking, but, I do not see the hype...
Cleary

P.S. Care to enlighten me... feel free...
 
I think we are making this too complicated.

Knives are good. Let's go buy some.
 
FliGuyRyan said:
I imagine I will have to handle a Sebenza to appreciate it. I do not like the looks from the pictures...

I know that's ignorence talking, but, I do not see the hype...
Cleary

P.S. Care to enlighten me... feel free...
Click to expand...
The Sebenza doesn't look flashy (at least not the normal models- the decorated ones look very elegant), but it is a working knife. A user.

The Sebenza is great because is has perfect fit and finish, an extremely useful utility design, and is very tough yet very light.

The Sebenza isn't the only good knife, nor is it the best knife (IMO). But it has a great combination of elements and is executed pretty much perfectly (in terms of fit and finish, and quality).

Because of the law of diminishing returns, a Sebenza isn't as good of a value as a Skirmish or a Manix, but it is, IMO, a better knife overall.

Compared to the modern lower-high-end folders I own and have used (Manix, Skirmish, SERE, AFCK, 710, Military, Para, T2, Commander etc...) the Sebenza has noticably better fit and finish, and feels as durable, but is much lighter. Is this worth the large price increase? I dunno. But I do know that the only knives I have ever seen or felt that had the quality of the Sebenza cost around the same, or more.

The Sebenza is more comperable to custom folders like the Firetac or TNT than it is to production folders like the 710 or Military. The Sebenza bridges the gap between custom and high-end production. The price reflects this and is, IMO, very fair for what you get. I also think knives like the Manix and 710 are priced very fair. And so are knives like the Lochsa and TNT. They are all great knives and it isn't so much a matter of which are better or worse (as some may prefer the Manix to a Lochsa), but which ones you want and how much you are willing to pay. A Lochsa costs more than a Sebenza and a Sebenza costs more than a 710. Price is a matter of how much it costs to make, how much time it takes, and the company overhead. BM can afford a lower profit per knife than CRK. Sometimes a knife I want costs 10 bucks. Great. Sometimes it costs 600. Oh well.

With the Sebenza you are paying something for the name, but you are really paying for the performance. You aren't buying filework or damascus (though that is an option- I am talking about the base models). You are paying for quality.

Is a Ferrari worth the money? Or a Rolex? To people not into cars or watches, no. But for people into cars or watches, they represent the standard, and a performance/price ratio that some find perfect.

Handle a Sebenza and see if it talks to you. If not, maybe it isn't for you. If it does, then well, you have to pay a pretty penny to get the knife you love.

Don't expect a chorus of angels to sound when you open the Sebenza for the first time. It is just a knife. But it is a very good one.

For me it was like this: I was into knives that were bargains. Good knives for a little money. After a while, I wanted more. At this point I just want what I want, and the price doesn't matter (to an extent). No, I won't pay 5 grand on a custom because of the name or because of its flashy looks. But I am not into names or flashy looks. I like users, and if a great user knife costs 385 or 600, as long as I want it, I will pay it. Is it worth it? Well, a Timex will tell time as well as a Rolex.

Okay, now I am making it too complicated.

The Sebenza is a great knife. If you want it, you have to pay for it. If you don't want to pay that much, or don't like it, don't get it. It's not for everyone. But some people do fall in love with it, and for them the price isn't an issue.
 
I like that philosophy Hair. lets do that.....Seriously I know what StJames is sayin. That the Sebbie is kinda like the "bar" that alot of knives are judged at by alot of people. In Fit Finish and price, so if the sebbie is the "bar" for price, custom makers dont want to go too far over that price. If they stay close to the sebbie price people say "hay for a $$ more I can get a custom, so why not?" while if the customs were like 300-500 more people are like "well the sebbies only this, its close enough so why pay 3-500 more?". I mean I say that about Brian Tighe's knives and RJ Martins and others. Your not paying that much more for a truly custom knife so why not by it? I can have a DDR for 4-5 maybe more depending on options so why not pay that extra? I think that the SNG and FNG are the same way they are semi-customs that kinda set standards. Now does this apply 100 percent of the time? of course not but its a pretty good theory which prolly has alot of truth to it.
 
I doubt very much that the price of the Sebenza is the determining factor in how custom knife makers price their framelock folders. The price of most custom knives is under what it should be if you consider what goes into making them. This is not just the case when talking about framelock folders.
 
Of course, with the proliferation of $100.00-200.00 Ti Framelocks, by the same logic, people are likely to look at the Sebenza (most without having actually handled one) and ask, is it REALLY worth that much more? I like Hair's approach, though. Its your money, do what ever the hell you want with it.

-Anthony

By the by, can someone here say Junkyard Dawg?
 
I guess theres no point charging a lot of money for a knife if no one can afford it, which is a point you made.

I think a lot of custom knives probably dont match production knives in performance but they are unique and collectable
 
Last time I looked at custom frame locks they were often much more than a Sebenza, sometimes over twice the cost, and they sold very quickly.
 
Hair... I value your opinion very much, and I appreciate to the utmost the explanation. I pesonally find the R. J. Rampage one of the most beautiful knives I've ever laid my eyes upon, but like the Sebenza to you, I would consider R. J. expensive, quality, USERS... which I value more than something that just sits in a drawer, or looking pretty on a desk.

Thanks again...
Cleary
 
Going by True North prices I can get an RJ Martin Devastator for 495, an Aircat for 550, Large Micarta Sebenza for 455, Lambert Inferno for 450, Hall Bounty hunter 495, Tighe Breaker 475. Just a few makers and a few prices from that site but the Sebbie is right there with them I know it doesnt mean that they look at the sebbie and go HMM I think I should keep my price around there. But like I said the customers kinda see what kind of knives they can get in that range. But you can get a custom thats through the roof in price or under what I have said. I do what hair does, I use knives and I collect them, but I know I might spend "10 or 600" to get what I want or need. Like already stated its a theory, and probably has "some" truth it.
 
FliGuyRyan said:
Hair... I value your opinion very much, and I appreciate to the utmost the explanation. I pesonally find the R. J. Rampage one of the most beautiful knives I've ever laid my eyes upon, but like the Sebenza to you, I would consider R. J. expensive, quality, USERS... which I value more than something that just sits in a drawer, or looking pretty on a desk.

Thanks again...
Cleary
Click to expand...
I see your point. One aspect of the Sebenza that a lot of people don't like is its rather drab looks. And there are users that look less plain yet are still users. It can be said that for $385 you should get something a little more striking.

But comparing the plain Sebenzas to the decorated ones shows that adding decorations adds to the price as it requires more man-hours and material. I think it is nice to have the less expensive "plain" options in the Sebenza line as I worry less about wear and dirt and got to save my money to use on another knife... not that I don't always want a decorated Sebenza. For people that want something more fancy, there is that option.

But I know you are aware of the many different decorated Sebenzas and that your point is that you don't like the base design of the knife (or the "lines and shape"), so the decorated ones probably don't look as good to you as other knives in the same price class, such as a Rampage. That is fair.

But I find Sebenzas to be pretty good looking. Not the best looking, but I like their understated elegance. It's just a matter of taste as not everyone has the same opinions on beauty.

But my main point was that the Sebenza gets a lot of hype not because of its looks, but because it has the same feel and "aura" of a no-frills custom, but at a lower price and easier availability.

The price of the decorated Sebenzas may be the same as many customs, but keep in mind the option to get a plain model for less and the fact that Sebenzas are easier to get.

(I'm starting to go on a tanget that isn't a direct reply to your post, Ryan)...

I have only been into knives since my join date on this forum, so waiting a year for a custom is a high price for me. The customs I plan on buying will be "in stock" such as from TNK or Steel Addiction. Even though I can get customs without the wait, the price is usually a bit higher than ordering from the maker him/herself, and the selection is limited.

In other words, if I want a custom-quality folder, I can get a Sebenza for 385 and have it the very next day for around 400 bucks total. If I lose it, I can replace it just as easily. If I wanted to go the custom route (and I will, soon), I would either have to wait months or years, or go with whatever TNK or Steel Addiction has in stock. And it will likely cost more than 400.

However, after getting a Sebenza, I started thinking "ya know... for $$$ more I can get a Firetac". The prices *are* very similar. I am just saying that there are other factors that make the Sebenza more attainable, especially for someone new to knives like me.

Sebenza is a gateway drug.
 
I agree with you Hair on "ya know...for $$$ more". After looking at the steel, fit/finish, and construction I would say for me I tend to look at how the knife fits my hand. Price is always a factor but for me it is one of many. I am not a hard use person but I do like the peace of mind knowing that when needed the knives I have purchased will perform. I would agree the Sebenza is a gateway because at the last show I started looking hard at the customs on display. IMHO the ranges of knife purchases start at $50-$150 then $300-$400, then $500-.....As you can see I have not made it to the stage past $500 but I will say that I have started looking at some of the custom folders in the 500-600 range. I find it hard to spend that amount without putting the knife in my hand. I don't think I could ever order a knife without having picked it up first. How a knife "drives" is very important to me. But then I would not have thought I would ever spend the amount money on knives I have spent so time will tell.
 
I think stjames has an excellent point, difficult to prove absolutely, but it makes sense.
 
The Sebenza is a simple design, done very well. I have a simple left hand large double stud with no anodizing. Simple, sheepie friendly - oozes quality and purposefulness.

I've been attacking mine with an Edgepro for the last couple of nights - putting the blade geometry where my tasks require them. When it's done - that will be my "custom".

MAT
 
I can see how it sets the market price point for this level of knife. It is a force to be reckoned with.
 
Live2cut: Right on many things come into play when making a purchase:steel.style,size,price,value,etc. but for me along with all those is FEEL, how does it fit and feel in MY hand!
 
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