The skinny on Spydies BD1N?

SwissHeritageCo

SwissHeritageCo

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Jan 8, 2021
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Curious as to peoples comparitive experience with spydercos bd1n and heat treat. I like the utility of simple steels like d2 for folding knives however I think 8cr13mov is pretty shit.

BD1N remains a mystery from the mixed feedback I've read, and as I've been eyeballing a lightweight manix 2... who better to ask than the experts!

Any clarity would be greatly appreciated!
 
Hi SwissHeritageCo.

What is it that you are interested to know? First, to be clear, 8Cr isn't shit. It's a decent steel for its intended purpose.

As far as CTS-BD1N goes; Spyderco helped Carpenter develop their blade steels. After we had helped them to develop their blade steels, Rick Gleisner, their head metallurgist, asked me what Carpenter could do for Spyderco to repay us for our efforts? I told him that there was a steel made by Hitachi in Japan for which there was no American equivalent. It has bee around for 30 years and it has many special features. We import it from Japan. I said that I would like for them to reproduce the steel in the US, powder it, tweak it, add some good stuff. We helped them to develop the alloy. They called it CTS-BD1N. It's a good blade steel alloy.

What else would you like to know?

sal
 
Hi Sal, would you please tell us how it compares to Vg10, and edge retention, thank you, Troy
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi SwissHeritageCo.

What is it that you are interested to know? First, to be clear, 8Cr isn't shit. It's a decent steel for its intended purpose.

As far as CTS-BD1N goes; Spyderco helped Carpenter develop their blade steels. After we had helped them to develop their blade steels, Rick Gleisner, their head metallurgist, asked me what Carpenter could do for Spyderco to repay us for our efforts? I told him that there was a steel made by Hitachi in Japan for which there was no American equivalent. It has bee around for 30 years and it has many special features. We import it from Japan. I said that I would like for them to reproduce the steel in the US, powder it, tweak it, add some good stuff. We helped them to develop the alloy. They called it CTS-BD1N. It's a good blade steel alloy.

What else would you like to know?

sal
Click to expand...

Hi, Sal!

I didn't know about your connection to Carpenter. That's interesting history! Can you tell us which Hitachi alloy is reproduced by CTS-BD1N? Is it G2/GIN-1?

(and thanks for revolutionizing the knife industry in multiple ways!)
 
Can't say I've had much experience with BD1N and what I have had is unfavorable, to me. To preface, I'd like to first and foremost think the appreciation of BD1N will be maximized and truly seen within a kitchen setting, versus a folding pocket knife.


It is a very fine-grained steel, with little alloy in its matrix. The extra carbon, compared to 8cr will allow it to get harder in heat-treatment, so theoretically you will achieve higher attainable sharpness and with much ease (IME). I've heard no real problems with anyone getting 8cr very sharp, aside perhaps the gummy feel on the stones and potential issues with burr/burr removal; YMMV. The addition of Nitrogen also allows much resistance to corrosion, a notable increase when compared to 8cr. Likely the biggest discernable difference to users between these two will be in sharpening response and corrosion resistance.


VG-10 is a class above BD1N. No real comparisons there in use; as I find VG-10 to sharpen at least with equal ease and in every other discernable category, in my experience, exceeds BD1N. This is strictly speaking in pocket knife terms and specifically, Spyderco. Corrosion resistance could (and will) be disputable. One difference I can note is BD1N will roll and VG-10 will chip, if stressed in a similar manner, other attributes being more-or-less equal (hardness, geometry, use...).


While I have no experience with 8cr, I can estimate that at least looking at it on paper and given Spydercos renowned investment in their heat-treating, BD1N will certainly be more similar than different in terms of experience, within a pocket knife and for its uses. My best comparison would be to AUS-8 and AUS-8 itself gets a rep for being worse than 8cr in performance, from many folks. Take that for what you will. Edge longevity in this class of steels is trivial and has more to do with your geometry and edge finish choice, versus anything else, IMO. The ease of achieving and maintaining that edge with minimal effort and resources is the main draw to this class of steels.


All this being said, overall BD1N is not a bad steel, but it doesn't interest me in any more of a way than many other "lesser" stainless steels do. Pocketbook and curiosity subsiding, there are better steels for me, for my money. If you value ease of sharpening and the ability to achieve and maintain a high level of sharpness, along with the added corrosion resistance and things like trivial differences of simply having a harder knife, by all means BD1N may be the steel for you. Many factors at play in making a decision, besides blade steel alone.


In ending, I will state, scientific testing will tell you one thing and experience will tell you another, in regards to many of the differences that you will notice in having one blade steel vs. another. Sharpening ability and resources available would be my biggest concern, when it comes to steel and performance.


Hope this helps.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi SwissHeritageCo.

What is it that you are interested to know? First, to be clear, 8Cr isn't shit. It's a decent steel for its intended purpose.
Click to expand...

As I have learned here on BF: Don't talk sh*t, when you don't know sh*t.

Someone almost always knows more than you do about knives around here. LOL! 🤣
 
weeping minora said:
Can't say I've had much experience with BD1N and what I have had is unfavorable, to me. To preface, I'd like to first and foremost think the appreciation of BD1N will be maximized and truly seen within a kitchen setting, versus a folding pocket knife.


It is a very fine-grained steel, with little alloy in its matrix. The extra carbon, compared to 8cr will allow it to get harder in heat-treatment, so theoretically you will achieve higher attainable sharpness and with much ease (IME). I've heard no real problems with anyone getting 8cr very sharp, aside perhaps the gummy feel on the stones and potential issues with burr/burr removal; YMMV. The addition of Nitrogen also allows much resistance to corrosion, a notable increase when compared to 8cr. Likely the biggest discernable difference to users between these two will be in sharpening response and corrosion resistance.


VG-10 is a class above BD1N. No real comparisons there in use; as I find VG-10 to sharpen at least with equal ease and in every other discernable category, in my experience, exceeds BD1N. This is strictly speaking in pocket knife terms and specifically, Spyderco. Corrosion resistance could (and will) be disputable. One difference I can note is BD1N will roll and VG-10 will chip, if stressed in a similar manner, other attributes being more-or-less equal (hardness, geometry, use...).


While I have no experience with 8cr, I can estimate that at least looking at it on paper and given Spydercos renowned investment in their heat-treating, BD1N will certainly be more similar than different in terms of experience, within a pocket knife and for its uses. My best comparison would be to AUS-8 and AUS-8 itself gets a rep for being worse than 8cr in performance, from many folks. Take that for what you will. Edge longevity in this class of steels is trivial and has more to do with your geometry and edge finish choice, versus anything else, IMO. The ease of achieving and maintaining that edge with minimal effort and resources is the main draw to this class of steels.


All this being said, overall BD1N is not a bad steel, but it doesn't interest me in any more of a way than many other "lesser" stainless steels do. Pocketbook and curiosity subsiding, there are better steels for me, for my money. If you value ease of sharpening and the ability to achieve and maintain a high level of sharpness, along with the added corrosion resistance and things like trivial differences of simply having a harder knife, by all means BD1N may be the steel for you. Many factors at play in making a decision, besides blade steel alone.


In ending, I will state, scientific testing will tell you one thing and experience will tell you another, in regards to many of the differences that you will notice in having one blade steel vs. another. Sharpening ability and resources available would be my biggest concern, when it comes to steel and performance.


Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
My thoughts and experience as well.
 
To be fair, 8Cr13Mov used to be a much better deal in budget knives. I remember back when steels like AUS-6 were more common and 8Cr13Mov seemed to be setting a good budget standard. Now in 2022... 8Cr13Mov might feel like "shit" relative to a lot of other steels being used at very competitive prices. For instance, more and more companies are using Chinese D2, 14C28N, or 9Cr18Mov in the space below the cost of a Tenacious. The new Sencut Neches from WE uses 10Cr15CoMov, a Chinese analog of VG-10, for around the same price as a Tenacious.

I'm very much looking forward to whenever Spyderco gets around to upgrading its entry-level stainless. In the meantime, my use of BD1N has mostly been limited to Spyderco's Z-Cut kitchen knives. They do a fine job and I have no complaints.

Here is a video comparing the edge retention of BD1N, SPY27, and S30V at 15dps across multiple edges versus cardboard. He has done other tests on Spyderco's BD1N and under his test conditions, it does very well.

 
weeping minora said:
Can't say I've had much experience with BD1N and what I have had is unfavorable, to me. To preface, I'd like to first and foremost think the appreciation of BD1N will be maximized and truly seen within a kitchen setting, versus a folding pocket knife.


It is a very fine-grained steel, with little alloy in its matrix. The extra carbon, compared to 8cr will allow it to get harder in heat-treatment, so theoretically you will achieve higher attainable sharpness and with much ease (IME). I've heard no real problems with anyone getting 8cr very sharp, aside perhaps the gummy feel on the stones and potential issues with burr/burr removal; YMMV. The addition of Nitrogen also allows much resistance to corrosion, a notable increase when compared to 8cr. Likely the biggest discernable difference to users between these two will be in sharpening response and corrosion resistance.


VG-10 is a class above BD1N. No real comparisons there in use; as I find VG-10 to sharpen at least with equal ease and in every other discernable category, in my experience, exceeds BD1N. This is strictly speaking in pocket knife terms and specifically, Spyderco. Corrosion resistance could (and will) be disputable. One difference I can note is BD1N will roll and VG-10 will chip, if stressed in a similar manner, other attributes being more-or-less equal (hardness, geometry, use...).


While I have no experience with 8cr, I can estimate that at least looking at it on paper and given Spydercos renowned investment in their heat-treating, BD1N will certainly be more similar than different in terms of experience, within a pocket knife and for its uses. My best comparison would be to AUS-8 and AUS-8 itself gets a rep for being worse than 8cr in performance, from many folks. Take that for what you will. Edge longevity in this class of steels is trivial and has more to do with your geometry and edge finish choice, versus anything else, IMO. The ease of achieving and maintaining that edge with minimal effort and resources is the main draw to this class of steels.


All this being said, overall BD1N is not a bad steel, but it doesn't interest me in any more of a way than many other "lesser" stainless steels do. Pocketbook and curiosity subsiding, there are better steels for me, for my money. If you value ease of sharpening and the ability to achieve and maintain a high level of sharpness, along with the added corrosion resistance and things like trivial differences of simply having a harder knife, by all means BD1N may be the steel for you. Many factors at play in making a decision, besides blade steel alone.


In ending, I will state, scientific testing will tell you one thing and experience will tell you another, in regards to many of the differences that you will notice in having one blade steel vs. another. Sharpening ability and resources available would be my biggest concern, when it comes to steel and performance.


Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

This was excellent, thank you for the time and thoughtful response.. it genuinely helps shed some light. I've read quite a bit on BD1N, but it's been difficult to get an idea on how it stacks up to similarly budgeted steels.

Chronovore said:
To be fair, 8Cr13Mov used to be a much better deal in budget knives. I remember back when steels like AUS-6 were more common and 8Cr13Mov seemed to be setting a good budget standard. Now in 2022... 8Cr13Mov might feel like "shit" relative to a lot of other steels being used at very competitive prices. For instance, more and more companies are using Chinese D2, 14C28N, or 9Cr18Mov in the space below the cost of a Tenacious. The new Sencut Neches from WE uses 10Cr15CoMov, a Chinese analog of VG-10, for around the same price as a Tenacious.

I'm very much looking forward to whenever Spyderco gets around to upgrading its entry-level stainless. In the meantime, my use of BD1N has mostly been limited to Spyderco's Z-Cut kitchen knives. They do a fine job and I have no complaints.

Here is a video comparing the edge retention of BD1N, SPY27, and S30V at 15dps across multiple edges versus cardboard. He has done other tests on Spyderco's BD1N and under his test conditions, it does very well.

Click to expand...

This was also really great. I've gone through three different tenacious' at this point, and while I never changed the geometry (my mistake) I was never overly pleased with the edge retention.

I recently purchased a budget Chinese D2 blade at around 62hrc (along the same cost of the tenacious) but I did reprofile the factory edge almost immediately. The difference between retention vs the 8cr13mov tenacious was substantial.

I'm very picky about designs and user costs (around $100ish or less is what I want to spend in a daily user/abuser) so it limits my choices.

That said, my experience could have been down to geometry. What can also be said is that it would be a point of pride to carry an American made knife.. and the ergos on spydies lightweight knives appear superior by my eye than some of the g10 versions.

I think I'll go ahead and test the manix 2 lw out, I prefer rolling to chipping and its ability to be stropped back to life appeals to me.

My tenacious with the factory grind were a bit strop adverse.

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful replies (including Sal). Always impressive to see you hands on, even since back in the British Blade days!

Thanks again folks.
 
Chronovore said:
To be fair, 8Cr13Mov used to be a much better deal in budget knives. I remember back when steels like AUS-6 were more common and 8Cr13Mov seemed to be setting a good budget standard. Now in 2022... 8Cr13Mov might feel like "shit" relative to a lot of other steels being used at very competitive prices. For instance, more and more companies are using Chinese D2, 14C28N, or 9Cr18Mov in the space below the cost of a Tenacious. The new Sencut Neches from WE uses 10Cr15CoMov, a Chinese analog of VG-10, for around the same price as a Tenacious.

I'm very much looking forward to whenever Spyderco gets around to upgrading its entry-level stainless. In the meantime, my use of BD1N has mostly been limited to Spyderco's Z-Cut kitchen knives. They do a fine job and I have no complaints.

Here is a video comparing the edge retention of BD1N, SPY27, and S30V at 15dps across multiple edges versus cardboard. He has done other tests on Spyderco's BD1N and under his test conditions, it does very well.

Click to expand...
Do you remember ATS-55? How was that, do you know what it is like? About to get my first ATS-55 knife.
 
Chronovore said:
I know the name but I'm not sure if I've ever had a knife in it.
Click to expand...
It's cool, mane, I found the info, I just sometimes shoot a few Q's at folks who know a thing or two like you on here because it sometimes nets good opinions 😀 the research I am getting is "This was great with a SpyderEdge", that is a comment I am getting over and over again. And the knife is a Civilian from somewhere between 97-03", so I'm stoked!

Sorry to derail from BD1N!
 
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