The state of our hobby as I see it...

J

jim n

Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
207
Just an observation... I was on the hunt for a new knife recently, having received a $50 rebate card from my wife's new cell phone, so I was making the rounds into all the local Brick and Mortar stores to see if I could scrounge up a good deal. Any more all I see are the Chinese knives taking up the space where decent quality Buck, Gerber, Victorinox and Schrade knives used to be. Packaged to catch the eye of people that don't know any better, these knives are everywhere. I went to Big 5 and all they had were Smith and Wesson, Chinese Remington, and MTech knives, with the exception of one Buck fixed blade. I saw a young (late teens/early 20's) guy looking over a S&W, flipping the blade open, and I wanted to tell him to go to wal-mart and pick up the lone spyderco or one of the 23 dollar Bucks they had, that this knife he was looking at was a piece of crap. I hate to be the one to say it here, but wal-mart is one of the few big stores to carry a half way decent knife any more, at least in my area. Sure, they sell the crap as well, but how many of us have bought the Spidie Native or one of the 110's from there this holiday season? People that don't know any better are buying the Chinese crap up, and in doing so are ensuring that quality knives are having no home on the shelves. It would seem that we are only a few years away from not being able to buy a good knife in stores any more. Gerber has gone to hell, but I bet they still sell well, they are a familiar name with decent looking (to the novices) knives. I had a hell of a time finding a good knife in the stores, I finally went to wally world and bought yet another $23 110just so I could appease the monkey on my back. I dunno, it just seems like we are heading for more and more Schrade-like shutdowns if the new knife buyer cannot find the quality knives to buy. I for one will keep buying good knives and giving them as gifts, that will help some, but I don't see how the good guys can keep pace with the crap if they can't get a spot on the shelves. The crap has to be out selling the good stuff, don't you think? I mean, if you don't know any better, how hard are you going to search before you buy a knife? I bet that kid at Big 5 bought that S&W knife, and I bet in a year when it falls apart, he goes right out and buys another one, because that is all he can find. Maybe if big 5 had an Endura he would spend a little more next time to get a better knife. Or maybe not.
 
The only problem with your rant is that the Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese, etc., are higher quality than your modern Bucks, Schrades, and Gerbers. They're making sh*t knives to compete with the cheapie imports. CRKT, in particular, uses crap steel, but their construction is first-rate, and they're using great designs by great custom makers. The only thing decent Buck's come out with in the last decade had been the Mayo TNT, and its edge was too thick, and QC was/is spotty. Truly, Buck and Gerber (especially) should be ashamed of the crap they turn out. There's a good reason why people buy (and as a consequence, people sell) cheapie imported knives with inferior steel: because American companies are using the same garbage steel, not improving on construction, and charging twice the price. And the import companies, as a rule, are using better designs. There are some great American companies: Chris Reeve, Spyderco, Benchmade, Busse, Bark River K&T, etc. But you pay for what you get. I truly believe the brands you mentioned will never recover, because they have devalued their brand so much in an effort to appeal to those who don't appreciate a good knife, so they settle for garbage.
 
Speaking of Big 5, the one by me carries Buck 110's, Vics, and Ka-bars, but yeah, they also carry those crappy Chinese imports.
 
I gotta stick my nose in here for a bit...everyone here complains about wal mart and "chinese" knock offs.


people who dont get it, arent going to get it!!!!! [knives in general]

I dont blame wal mart for trying to stay in business. I think it is smart of Spyderco to get in there to be the knife that "those people" reach for!!!!
VERY SMART!

People who only want a cheap knife are going to get only a cheap knife. Its human nature to get what you want...even The Rolling Stones tried to capture this in a song....

they knew we'd be complaining about it on these here knife discussion boards!:D:cool:
 
The truth is there are many decent products coming out of China and that includes knives.
I'm 43. I remember as a child thinking, products from Asia - what crap. These days it's increasingly difficult to purchase items that are not made in China - assembled in China - or assembled elsewhere from Chinese parts. I've had a long time to get used to a made in Japan - Korea - Taiwan - Singapore or Phillipines sticker.
China is a manufacturing juggernaut.
Most of the cutlery sold in this country - sporting or otherwise is manufactured in China and that includes bits and blades for saws as well. How about electronics - appliances - furniture - clothing - bicycles - and in the not too distant future, automobiles.
Is there better quality, yes, some of it from their Asian competitors and some from Europe and the USA - if you can afford it. But for most around the world - into the forseeable future - Chinese quality is all people will know.
Additionally, there is nothing inately deficient about the Chinese. They are capable of producing any quality of goods they choose.
If indeed, as you suggest, Chinese products are crap then perhaps we would still have a strong manufacturing base in this country. Yes, there is the economy of manufacture but it's the fact that these goods were easy substititutes for products made here that really put us out of business.
 
jim n said:
I dunno, it just seems like we are heading for more and more Schrade-like shutdowns if the new knife buyer cannot find the quality knives to buy.
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Well, you hit the nail on the head right there. That Schrade-like shutdown was caused by Schrade. Wal-Mart didn't do it, Chinese manufacturing didn't do it... Schrade did it to themselves by not stepping up to the times and offering a little more diverse product line. In my knife buying life (granted I'm only 24) I never really looked at a Schrade and got overly excited.

I love the Schrades I have, but all of them are older and I never even considered buying a new Schrade. There was just nothing interesting.

I think our little knife world will be just fine as long as the old American companies keep making new innovations while staying true to their roots. Buck's venture into the tactical side has done pretty well, and their traditional line hasn't suffered one bit. The same is true of Camillus. But that can't be said for Schrade.

When it comes to Chinese knives, I try to avoid them. I'll buy Tiawan and Japan, but China... not unless it's a really good knife by a quality maker. I own one Chinese knife, a Kershaw Vapor II and it made a hell of a good beater knife.

You get what you pay for, and most of the world doesn't need to pay what we do for a pocket knife. $50 is extreme for a pocket knife for most people, so of course the $19.95 China stuff is going to outsell everything else. But there's still enough of a market for the higher end stuff that it'll still exist. And I hope and pray to whatever diety there is that it continues to be like that.

I don't really see a point in trying to change people. Money is the deciding factor in most cases. I'm glad to see a Spyderco at Wal-Mart because maybe someone will pick it up who otherwise would have bought a Winchester. But if they don't... oh well.

What's going to hurt the knife world the most in America is the general attitude of the fear mongering folks in DC (Bush and co.). When a box cutter becomes a weapon, we're in serious trouble. But I'll leave it at that, so this doesn't fall into W&C territory :p.

As long as we keep supporting the companies that we believe in, use and carry responsibly and care about the people involved, things'll be ok.
 
Maybe I worded it wrong, my intention was not to "knock" the Chinese crap, but to lament the fact that there are VERY few places to find a Spyderco/Benchmade/Variety of the better knife makers out there. This being the case, where are the new breed of knife collectors/users going to locate our daily bread and butter? If you pick up a Blade magazine you see Dark Ops, S&W, Colt, and Fury knives everywhere, but seldomly do you see Benchmade reviews. When I was a kid we had a variety of good quality knives in the local stores, I still have most of my older knives that I got in B&M stores, they are some good knives. I actually bought the first Victorinox that came with a phillips screwdriver instead of a corkscrew from my local shop. I have my BMF and scrimshawed Silver Knight, my old 112, and a few Case knives from long ago. Today I would not be able to find these in a store within a 50 mile radius of my home, if at all. Perhaps we should take out a full page add or two in the knife publications? I have learned more in this forum then I have in any of the magazines I have read, at least here we have true to life reviews that are not biased. It just seems like the new generation will have more obstacles to overcome to get a good knife than we did.
 
Psychopomp said:
What's going to hurt the knife world the most in America is the general attitude of the fear mongering folks in DC (Bush and co.). When a box cutter becomes a weapon, we're in serious trouble. But I'll leave it at that, so this doesn't fall into W&C territory :p
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that's the cold hard truth right there, and frankly, I think there's alot of mall ninja's in the public and on the forum that contribute to this feeling. I carry a carson flipper knife, and I make a point of opening it slowly with 2 hands whenever there are people watching (excluding close friends and immediate family) ya I could open it in the blink of an eye, but it'd scare people, and soon a bylaw would be passed outlawing my incredibly handy carson flipper.

sorry about the threadjack.
 
warden41272 said:
The only thing decent Buck's come out with in the last decade had been the Mayo TNT
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I'm sorry, I have to interject here, that is horse$#!^. I fail to believe I am the only person that gave the Adrenaline-Ti a second, and third glance.

but I do agree with the point. I sent a customer comment to gander Mtn that it seemed that their cutlery counter was slowly dissappearing. For instance I bought their last adrenaline Ti at a closeout price. It's been 3 months, nothings changed.
 
I can think of 7 or so stores within 20 minutes of me that carry benchmade spyderco CRKT Kershaw and other decent knives. (Kirkhams, Sportsmans Warehouse, Cutlery Corner, Army Navy Surplus, REI, L Lorenz, Razors Edge, Dick's Sporting Goods, Garts sports carries benchmade off and on, not consistently). If I add another 10 minutes to the drive time, I can just about double that number.

Prices aren't that good compared to the online retailers, but at the 30 minute mark I now have a Cabelas and they are a good value for the D2 Griptilians.

6 gunshows a year always have lots of knives to play with besides the junk. That's the only place I see and handle Microtechs for example.

I think you need to look around a bit more or relocate.

Phil
 
I'm not going to bash any countries knives here, ain't no future in it and my opinion about the world market don't mean much anyways. Asian-made, Big Box Mart(pick your poison) distributed cutlery is the dominant player in the market today. I do know that very good, USA made, traditional knives are still available from Case, BRKT, and others. Thats where I'm putting my money. I am also buying old Schrade's, Cases, and Imperials on the secondary market. They are plentiful, and because of the fixation with tactical stuff, usually a bargin. I have several CRKT's and they are fine knives, no complaints and I may buy another if the mood strikes me, but for now I've got all the tac-style folders I can use. I've made sure that my kids and grandkids will all have at least a couple of nice, USA made, traditional knives if they want them. I have more good knives than I'll wear out in my lifetime, so any additions will be because I want another knife to show off and play with. Don't bemoan the state of the industry, but do put your money into good stuff, preferably made here, if you want to see some cutlery made here in the future.
 
All we can do is to continue to purchase the best knives we can for the amount we want to spend, and to try to educate as many people as possible so that just maybe they will do the same thing.

Stores will carry what sells and will seldom divert from the safe path. Very few big box stores will venture into the higher end knives. Most of their purchases are probably in the under $20.00 range and they want to carry the flashiest knives they can get at this price point so they can attract more of the uneducated knife buyers. They are out to make money period, and will go with what has works.

I don't see a time that there won't be better knives being produced by the better manufacturers, but you will probably only be able to get them at cutlery stores (if they can survive), online, and hopefully at stores like Wal-Mart.
 
i have no problem with tawain knives & own knives like the grand hawk dog & kasper pro from crkt. ive accepted some of the tawain made knives from them & a few others,but knives like the buck hilo ,gerber paraframe,& buck pilot is where i draw the line.i think the quality of mainland china is close to being acceptable,but not yet for me.& as i see it now,unless china comes out with a nice folder that will exceed my bm710,ti knives stars & stripes,or even my crkt dog,i see no reason to buy them anyway.........
 
Most people buy cheap knives because most people do not need or want any better. Most places sell mainly cheap knives because that is what sells the most.

I am not into shoes, so I buy inexpensive shoes instead of high-end ones. This is true for most people. Most shoe stores only sell cheap shoes. Truely high-end shoes are harder to find, and have less demand for them.

This is the way it is with everything. Only real fans of a certain product want the high-end stuff. Everyone else is fine with the cheap stuff and they are right to save their money and get the cheap stuff if it is all they need.

There is nothing wrong with cheap knives. We are in the minority for wanting better and being willing to pay for it.
 
I agree mostly and understand your point...

BUT, I remember as a kid getting a 'cheap' Buck knockoff knife ... It was from K-Mart and made in Japan.

Now my 'good' Spyderco's and A.G. Russell's are made in Seki, Japan. It's only a matter of time before the quality of Chinese knife production equals that of US, Japan, and Germany. By then, we'll be saying, "Those Mexican knives are ruining the knife industry. They'll never be as good as my Chinese knife."

Just my 2 cents.
Mike
 
First let me say that I own plenty of American made knives in the 100-200 dollar range. I recently got a Buck/Mayo Hilo that is my first Chinese made knife. Many people don't want to hear it but this knife is a very well made knife, especially considering that it can be purchased for around 30 dollars online. Yes, China makes a lot of crappy knives but I honestly can't think of a better EDC folder at this price. I did not expect much from a 30 dollar knife made in China but this one is a real bang for the buck.
 
I think ALAMEDA's post about sharpening was a dead-on analysis of the situation with knife knowledge among the general public.

You buy one, you use it until it gets dull, then you make a half-hearted attempt at sharpening it with a pull-through sharpener or something or throw it away.

That's why these "50 folding knives for $50" deals work. Knives are disposable to most people. They're never going to know by experience if a knife has good, properly-treated steel that will take an edge so they don't demand it.

Or maybe they can do a decent job of sharpening because they were fortunate enough to have a relative who showed them how. But still, why pay $50 or something for a knife when a $10 knife can work? Steels, materials, lock strength and similar things are all a mystery. It just comes down to price in the end.

If you manufacture high-quality knives, you could become extremely rich if you could solve the sharpening dilemma that most people face, and convince them of the benefits of good steel and maintaining a knife. You could also become rich if you could convince more people that they need a knife. I've seen way too many boxes cut with scissors. I've seen people try and cut things with car keys...
 
I see it a different way. I live in a remote area and have to drive 40 minutes just to find a store that sells any kind of knife, much less one I'd want to buy. And believe me, the clerk won't know anything about the knives he does have.

The internet changes everything. I've picked up way more good advice on this forum than I could have ever found in years past, so I have a small, but nice collection of excellent-quality knives -- all bought over the internet.

So I think the knife market is way better today. And I wonder how many $400 folders Chris Reeves would sell without the internet, if instead he had to find local hardware stores willing to sell his knives and willing to train people to sell them.
 
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