The Ultimate Knife

K

Ken Cox

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The Ultimate Knife does not yet exist.
When it does come into existence Spyderco will make it and it will have some very specific attributes and design features.

First of all it will lend itself to equal use in either the left or the right hand.
In order to accomplish this equal left and right hand usefullness, the knife will have a moveable clip.
With the clip removed, the left and right scales will perfectly mirror each other.
The scales will also have a finished appearance with the clip removed (the Spyderco Native almost meets this requirement, except that the clip retaining screw does not fully seat tight and flush without the clip in place).

Secondly, the grip ergonomics will work equally as well in the reverse, saber and paintbrush grips.
The paintbrush grip, with the flats of the blade horizontal and the pivot pinched between the thumb and the index finger, precludes a point-down clip with the root of the clip at the pivot end.
This means the scales should at least provide for a point-up carry with the clip on either side of the knife (the Spyderco Native already meets the three-grip requirement with the clip on either side).

Thirdly, the blade must have a shape equally as useful for self-defense as for general utility.
Firearms-Guru Jeff Cooper makes an amazingly persuasive argument for the importance of the point on a knife used for self-defense.
Therefore, the blade should have a relatively fine spear-point with a sharpenable swedge and sufficient length (4") to make itself felt through winter clothing (the present Native almost meets this requirement, and, from the photograph, the proposed larger Native does meet this requirement).

Fourthly, in order to serve in a survival situation, the steel used to make the blade must have first class edge-holding characteristics, maximum corrosion resistance, and for whittling and carving with a relatively fine point, a high Charpy index.
According to recent reports on this forum, SV30 would meet this requirement.

Fifthly, the Ulitmate Knife should have a reasonable degree of robustness, tolerance to side-loads and light-weight.
This suggests a 5/32" thick blade, dual steel liners, carbon fiber scales and a large diameter pivot.

Sixthly, the lock on the Ulitmate Knife should resist unintentional closing and it should work equally as well left-handed as right-handed.
For a knife held in the paintbrush grip this means a lock-back.

Seventhly, the Ultimate Knife should come with dummy screws for any empty holes (if used for the clip) and a symmetrical (for right and left side wear) sheath for those who prefer to remove the clip and carry the Ultimate Knife on their belt.

Finally, the Ulitmate Knife should have an American manufacturer and sell for $150 US dollars or less (anyone could make and sell this knife for $200).
 
Isn't this equivalent to someone asking "What's the best knife?"

To which I think most agree there is no answer? :confused:
 
...For me, it IS almost my stainless, fully-serrated Police model. (Now, if ONLY it had a 6 inch blade, an ambidextrious & tip-up/tip-down pocket-clip [like the new Chinook II], and G-10 inserts in the stainless scales...).
 
Thombrogan wrote:

"Why would the nation of manufacture make it an ultimate knife?"

An excellent question and it may reveals my deep chauvinism.
I apologize.

I once had a Browning Model 92 in .44 Magnum.
I look back on it now as probably the finest-made rifle I have ever owned.
However, it had "Made in Japan" stamped on the barrel and for some reason that seemed inconsistent with a rifle designed and originally manufactured in America.
When a time came and I needed some extra cash, I sold that rifle.
Now I would like to have it back and I would perceive the "Made in Japan" as a label of excellence.

Anyway, in some ways I like the look of "GOLDEN COLORADO U.S.A. EARTH" on my Native.
Perhaps the knife should just say "EARTH".

Thanks to thrombrogan for making me think it over.
He makes a good point: the nation of manufacture should not matter.

-----

DaveH writes:

"Isn't this equivalent to someone asking `What's the best knife?'"

I didn't ask. :)

In my naked arrogance I just told everybody what I think would make the Ultimate Knife.
I had described this knife before in the thread about the upcoming larger Native, and I wanted to keep the idea alive.

In my heart of hearts I want Sal to read this and decide to make the new large Native exactly as I have described this one.

At this point in my knife collecting, I have every knife I could ever want except a Randall #2 and the so-called Ultimate Knife, aka the Large Native, the American Native, the Native Talent, etc.
I would actually rather have a large Native as described than a Randall #2.
 
The Native is pretty much my perfect knife.
It's the model that I've bought a variant, but partly because I've lost the original FRN 440V version.
I'd like to get that Native back.
 
Ken:
Why does your perfect knife have to be equally suited for right and left hand use?

I am definitely right-handed, my left hand is of little use other than in a "supporting role". Therefore I prefer a knife that is better for the right hand at the cost of its left hand suitability (like the Lil´Temperance).

That is also why a lock that only works for one side does not bother me much. But I agree on the lockback anyway, it is one of my favourite locks, and I do not really understand why it appears to be so unpopular.

Kristofer
 
What about blade geometry Ken? Full flat (my preference), flat saber, hollow ground, perhaps convex? All are amenable to the requirement for a sharpenable swedge. Which would you require on this mythical Earth knife?

Regarding the Made in U.S.A. requirement, I think it is admirable, but unlikely that the cost, and thus the price could be kept low.

Ambidextrous because one never knows when one's primary paw might be rendered useless.
 
Ken, a sharpenable swedge means that the swedge must be able to become fully enclosed in the handle.

Hey Komondor. Plato's knife has no distinct blade shape or handle size. The "pure form" of a knife has the shape that serves all and therefore cannot be put into a physical embodyment. Once put into a physical embodyment, it no longer serves all, that's why it's a "pure form". I must confess that it is Platos's "pure form" that I seek when I design. I think that is Ken's goal in his "ultimate knife".

Ken, The current plan is to add "Earth" to all of the USA made models, at least for now.

Glockman, In my opinion, if you are going to need a 6" blade, it should be fixed. reasons:

1. a 6" blade needs a longer handle to "carry" the blade than is practical. 6" blade + 7"+ handle = 13"+ knife that only has a 6" blade. a 13" FB knife can easily have a 7.5" blade and a 5.5" handle.

2. The leverage arm of a 6" blade is very large and it would take an enormous locking mechanism to make such a blade safe for defensive use. I see these very large folders on the market with light duty (by our standards) locks and IMO, I feel they are for "show" only.

3. Lateral pressures on a folder of that size would also be difficult to keep strong enough.

just some thoughts to share on the "ultimate" high performance matter separator.

sal
 
Grey Area asked:

"Why does your perfect knife have to be equally suited for right and left hand use?"

First of all, most knives marketed as ambidextrous do not equally favor both hands, and always at the detriment of the left hand.
Some of these so-called ambidextrous knives only make a concession to the left hand by making the clip movable to either side, while the rest of the grip and the lock favor the right hand.
This short-changes us left-handers.

The present Native demonstrates that the truly ambidextrous knife exists.
Everyone praises its ergonomics regardless of hand preference.

Secondly, I sometimes move my Native to a right hand carry.
I may do this to make room on my belt on the left side for a fixed-blade hunting knife or for a firearm (I carry in my waistband).
I also move my Native to the right in order to keep my right hand in the loop.

Right-handers should similarly move their knife to the left side on occasion in order to wake up their left hand.
No other weapon, in my mind, so favors the left hand as does the knife.
Or perhaps I should say it the other way around: the left hand favors the knife.

My right-handed son, who initially said he could not use a knife in his left hand, with practice has made his left hand as facile with a knife as his right.
At first he moaned and groaned, but it only took him a few practice sessions and now he can wear a knife on either side.

After I get my large Native, I will probably wear my small Native on my right side and use it as my primary utility knife.
I will carry the large Native on my left side.
 
Somehow Sal's post got ahead of mine and I missed it.
Well, I've read it now. :)
Thanks.

I have sharpened the swedge on my Native and I've only cut myself on it 20 or 30 times.
I've learned now how to handle it and I have not cut myself for maybe a year.

If the Large Native came with a sheath, then one could remove the clip, sharpen the swedge and carry the knife in the sheath, closed, just as he would a fixed blade knife with an exposed sharp edge.
Folding a knife makes for a smaller and more sociable package.

Producing the Ulitmate Knife with an unsharpened but sharpenable swedge leaves it up to the purchaser.
Adding a sheath and a finished appearance with the clip removed makes sharpening the swedge a more reasonable option.

By the way, I really did cut myself a mess of times before I learned how to handle my Native.
I don't realize how much I have modified my knife handling because of this, until I wear my Rescuer.
I now handle my Rescuer as if it has a sharpened swedge, and it makes me laugh each time I catch myself doing it.

Actually, carrying my Native with the sharpened swedge (in my waistband) had a pretty long learning curve and I don't recommend it lightly.

I wonder what a Native with scales that covered the swedge would look like.
I think it would look very much like my Greco Persian, which has a round-bellied handle behind the finger cut-out, which makes it a good knife for "pushing."
It fills the cup of the palm very nicely.
 
Sal when you talk about those large folders for light duty, would you include the Cold Steel Vaq Grande and Camillus MAXX folders?
 
Sal when you talk about those large folders for light duty, would you include the Cold Steel Vaq Grande and Camillus MAXX folders?
Click to expand...


My Guess is that sal is not going to want to name names. I will though!

Yes on the CS, and probably not on the MAXX. The torque produced by the MAXX is about 1.4 times that of a standard 4inch folder, but the lock is rated at 1000LBS/inch which i will take to mean inch-lbs (why dont they publish lock numbers in real torque units?) so it would still take about 180lbs of force at a right angle on the tip of the knife to break the lock of the maxx.
 
Interesting considering the solidity of the Vaq Grande's lock, its simply huge and C/S make high claims for lock strength.

Not that I don't believe you though, C/S have a habit of making outlandish claims.:)
 
I personally wouldnt use a MAXX for SD, since i prefer smaller blades anyways, but the lock should probably hold up.

For a few other reasons than the fail point rating of the lock. It's a frame lock so your hand helps strengthen the lock up, and it's Ti (which is NOT as strong as steel per volume of material ie Ti liner locks should sometimes be steel), But it's really thick Ti and Ti is a very sticky material (gauling action). But with a big blade you are still tempting fate

The CS knives are lockbacks, without liners and in FNR, i personally likie FNR lockbacks, but not with 6.5in blades, look at what spderco had to do with the Chinook to bring it up to MBC rating, CS lockbacks are a far cry from the Chinook!
 
Ken,
how close is the Pentagon Elite to your ultimate knife? I think it is designed to be double-edged (don't know how it comes from the factory).
Sorry Sal for mentioning competition :) but I want to know how Ken's ideal compares with things on the market now. (We already know he likes the Native.)
 
After I get my large Native, I will probably wear my small Native on my right side and use it as my primary utility knife.
I will carry the large Native on my left side.
Click to expand...
Is there going to be a large Native comeing out? :eek: :D
 
There is no perfect knife. There might be a perfect knife for You but it wont be for everyone else. IF there was a perfect knife there would only be one knife company making one kind of knife and dang knife collecting would get boring! Imagine a hundred of the same knife "Now this is my Spyderco Model 5000" and this is my "Spyderco Model 5000" and over here is my "Spyderco Model 5000" an my EDC is a "Spyderco Model 5000" oh yea don’t forget my "Spyderco Model 5000" I have for the kitchen, this Spyderco Model 5000 I have had for 12 years and this one I just got. Uh Tom they both look the same...

Hehe I guess Spyderco as far as sales would like that scenario but we wouldn’t and I doubt Sal would ever be satisfied just making one knife and never exploring the possibilities. Whatever knife you find to be the best feel, cutter, looker for now is your perfect knife. For now.
 
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