The weakest link in the strong folding knife

[effer]

I've read a lot of comments saying that the knife is strong only as much as it's weakest link. Usually this comment associated with a folding knife and the weakest point being the fact that the knife is folding. Like one of the recent comments saying that folding knife is already "broken" in half by design and can't be made stronger by using a thicker blade.

I strongly disagree with this point of view. In my experience, the weakest link is the user.

In the order of being the weakest I would put those:

1) The user. One has to be really weak in the head to perform most of the tasks that destroy knives.
2) I will put the lock strength here, though I used to play with slipjoints when I was a kid and I have broken the tips, I have broken the blade in half, I have destroyed the edge. The fact that knife didn't have any lock at all, didn't stop me from using it.
3) There are enough tasks that require prying. If the first link is already broken or it is such an emergency that one has no other way of doing it other than prying with the knife, then blade tip will give up next.
4) Another common thing is edge being completely ruined by improper use. Yet again, the mind has already been compromised.
5) Blade thickness. Again some serious prying. The blade will break in half before knife will break in the pivot area.

I have yet to come across a quality folding knife that will brake in the pivot area before snapping the blade. I think that strength of the pivot in the modern knife is a bit overrated.

When compared to a fixed blade, for most tasks, I think blade geometry (tip strength, thickness) will play much bigger role than the fact that the knife is folding.

Probably many people here seen the video of a guy using Zero Tolerance knives to cut through bolts and pretty much destroying them.

1) Mind gives up first
2) Edge was ruined
3) Blade was broken in half on ZT0200
4) Lock on ZT0300 gave up when knife was hammered into 2x4
5) Tip was broken on ZT0300

What do you think?

 

[Loneriderz]

I think you are confusing the lines to an otherwise simple argument... The comments on folding blades being weak is based on its design (as compared to a fixed blade), not usage. Still there is some substance to what you are suggesting... Most knife damage is usually attributed to user abuse or misuse. A determined fool will damage any fixed or folding blade regardless of its quality.

 

[wally@ferguson]

All tools have limitations....a folding knife has limitations....if you can't understand this you will never understand the limitation of a hammer.

 

[Todd A]

Like one of the recent comments saying that folding knife is already "broken" in half by design and can't be made stronger by using a thicker blade.

That is talking about the lock. You can't really argue that a full tang fixed is not stronger than a folder in that area.Can you?

1) The user. One has to be really weak in the head to perform most of the tasks that destroy knives.

Really? I hardly consider myself weak in the head. Perhaps it depends on a persons user needs. I doubt urban types see any need to baton wood. Since I live in a very rural area and my hobbies are all outdoor related I use my knives hard. They don't just open envelopes or cut strings off clothing. A small fixed is perfect for my needs. No matter how small my hatchet is, it still won't fit in my pocket.

I wouldn't try this with any folder, but my little EDC blade will handle it all day long.

 

[Sticky]

Not quite sure the point of the post but with locking folders i think lock reliability on a folder is waaay more important than how many thousand pounds it takes to break it. If you are worried about locks breaking on your folder knife for your intended use, it's time for you to start picking out a nice fixed bladed knife. The only point of folders is carrying convienence, period.
When folding knives are built like hulking tanks the size of a common red brick, that are supposed to be as strong as a fixed blade, they fail in both areas. That said, i still like lockbacks best for folders...but the ultimate lockback is still the fixed blade. NO SOUP FOR YOU, ONE YEAR...NEXT!!

 

[elkins45]

That is talking about the lock. You can't really argue that a full tang fixed is not stronger than a folder in that area.Can you?




Really? I hardly consider myself weak in the head. Perhaps it depends on a persons user needs. I doubt urban types see any need to baton wood. Since I live in a very rural area and my hobbies are all outdoor related I use my knives hard. They don't just open envelopes or cut strings off clothing. A small fixed is perfect for my needs. No matter how small my hatchet is, it still won't fit in my pocket.

I wouldn't try this with any folder, but my little EDC blade will handle it all day long.

What is this knife Todd? It looks like a nice one.

 

[effer]

I think you are confusing the lines to an otherwise simple argument... The comments on folding blades being weak is based on its design (as compared to a fixed blade), not usage. Still there is some substance to what you are suggesting... Most knife damage is usually attributed to user abuse or misuse. A determined fool will damage any fixed or folding blade regardless of its quality.

I understand the point very well. But the argument usually comes up with the suggestion that we do not need a stronger folding knife. There is no point in making it stronger, because it is already "broken". Why carry an overbuilt folder? Fixed blade is the only way to go. I disagree with that. Fixed blade is great indeed, but what if you live in urban area and need a strong knife. Will you say that blade thickness and geometry won't matter?

All tools have limitations....a folding knife has limitations....if you can't understand this you will never understand the limitation of a hammer.

Exactly! If user does not understand the limitation of the tool, no matter how strong it is, he still might break it.

I also think that in many situations (not always) one will encounter the limitation of the blade itself (tip strengh, blade strengh, edge strengh), before they come to limitation of the design (folding).

 

[effer]

That is talking about the lock. You can't really argue that a full tang fixed is not stronger than a folder in that area.Can you?

No. That previous comment came up in the thread about the thickness of the blade. While I can't argue that full tang fixed with the same parameters is stronger than a folder, I can say that not every fixed blade is stronger than some overbuilt folder.

Really? I hardly consider myself weak in the head. Perhaps it depends on a persons user needs. I doubt urban types see any need to baton wood. Since I live in a very rural area and my hobbies are all outdoor related I use my knives hard. They don't just open envelopes or cut strings off clothing. A small fixed is perfect for my needs. No matter how small my hatchet is, it still won't fit in my pocket.

I wouldn't try this with any folder, but my little EDC blade will handle it all day long.

I don't consider you being weak in the head either. You do understand the limitation of your tool. You baton with you knife. You need it and you do it. You chose a good knife for this.

Will you do the same with a Spyderco ZDP-189 Mule fixed blade hardened to 67 RC? I bet it will break in half. It is not made for this.
How about a 1/32" kitchen knife without the full tang? Will you try batoning with it? I'd rather take my chances with a ZT folder. As a matter of fact I can do some batoning even if lock is not engaged.

How about getting a bullet slug out of the tree or opening some ammo cans. You can break the tip on the full tang fixed blade just as easily and a tip on a folding knife.

What if one is looking to buy a knife that he will be using to cut a thick wire all day long or something like this. He's under impression that if he get a strong enough knife, he will be fine. Will it matter if it is a fixed blade or a folding knife? The edge will be killed long before the user comes to the limitation of the folding design.

 

[Todd A]

What is this knife Todd? It looks like a nice one.

It was built by Stomper. (JK Handmade Knives ,forum in the makers area).

He calls it the "Anniversary EDC".

And yes it is a nice one.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

I bet it will brake in half. . . You can brake the tip on the full tang fixed blade just as easily and a tip on a folding knife.

You cannot brake knives. They can break, though.

 

[sweet_hitch-hiker]

so basically, dont do anything that will break a knife and it wont break. that makes sense. obviously a folder is going to have limitations as opposed to a fixed just due to design. but most people dont do daily tasks that require carrying a fixed. a folder is much easier to carry, making it much more practical.

 

[effer]

You cannot brake knives. They can break, though.

Thanks. Got that fixed

 

[Gadgetaholic]

so basically, dont do anything that will break a knife and it wont break. that makes sense. obviously a folder is going to have limitations as opposed to a fixed just due to design.

This makes sense - generally when you break a knife you know that you are doing something stupid. I like to use the right tool for the job whenever possible and when I am caught without the right tool then I want to use a tool that is at least capable of doing the job. If I am going camping I'll take a folder that will do a good job of certain tasks - slicing food prep or whatever, but I'll also take a strong fixed blade. If I am chopping or batoning then I think the strain on a folder's lock would be bad - but a good full tang fixed blade would be fine with it.

I haven't really had many knives (outside the kitchen) until recently. I have started with reasonably priced knives that will do a reasonable job. I have 3 different sized fixed knives and 3 folders - all under $70, a couple were under $30. Between them I can handle most tasks without any risk of breakage. My RAT-1 folder is a good solid knife, but I wont be trying to chop down a small tree with it or baton any wood - just as I wont be using my tiny fixed blade knife for those tasks either. My BK-7 has a 7" blade and it is strong, heavy and solid - it would obviously handle chopping and batoning much better than smaller, lighter or weaker knives.

How to decide which is the right knife for the task? I have no idea, I'll just try to apply a little common sense and see how I do!