Thinking I need a coarser stone. Options?

aleforme

aleforme

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Feb 21, 2013
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So right now my freehand set up consists of 8” DMT Diamonds and Spyderco Ceramics. My lowest grit stone is the Duosharp Coarse. I’ve been really happy with this set up and progression accept when trying to bring up a burr on a really dull knife. Typically my kitchen knives. The boning at steak knives give me the hardest time. Steak knives get really dull when cutting meat on ceramic plates to say the least.


My question is this, will the DMT Duosharp or Diasharp “Extra Coarse” be sufficient for bringing up a good burr on the duller knives? I’m not trying to drastically reset bevels angles but may want to at some point. Right now the Duosharp “Coarse” just isn’t working that well on some knives. Wondering if the Extra Coarse is what I need or is there some else (Atoma?) that I should maybe consider? I want something at least 8 inches as I have some pretty large kitchen knives that I use when smoking larger cuts of meat.


I know part of this is my skill and technique on these longer, thinner more flexible blades. But, thinking a coarser stone might help? Based on what I currently have. the natural choice seems to be the DMT Extra Coarse but I’m not married to the brand and open to other options. Should I go lower? I really want to stick with Diamond and not ready to jump into Whet/Waterstones yet. I have a Norton combo stone but having the same problem there.

Thanks
 
DMT Extra Coarse should be plenty - I wouldn't go with the XXC. For resetting bevels and coarse edge work a lot of folks have just gone with the Harbor Freight diamond plates - they wear out faster but are a lot less expensive than DMT.

My current go to is this:
http://www.nordicskaters.com/produc...es/1605/zandstra-foss-elite-sharpening-stone/

Claims to be good with oil, water or dry, but I use it with water ( I know you said waterstones no-go, but just FYI). The coarse side is very fast, the "fine" side sets up nicely for further refinement at 1k Japanese or your fine DMT.
 
Might I suggest one of my Manticore bench stones? Flexible blades do require more support from the guiding hand in use, generally speaking, but having a truly aggressive stone in the arsenal can help a lot. The Manticore is a ANSI 60 (250 micron) while the DMT extra course is only a 60 micron. Even something like the Bull Thistle series is ANSI 120 (106 micron) and could give a noticeable increase in cutting speed.
 
HeavyHanded said:
DMT Extra Coarse should be plenty - I wouldn't go with the XXC. For resetting bevels and coarse edge work a lot of folks have just gone with the Harbor Freight diamond plates - they wear out faster but are a lot less expensive than DMT.

My current go to is this:
http://www.nordicskaters.com/produc...es/1605/zandstra-foss-elite-sharpening-stone/

Claims to be good with oil, water or dry, but I use it with water ( I know you said waterstones no-go, but just FYI). The coarse side is very fast, the "fine" side sets up nicely for further refinement at 1k Japanese or your fine DMT.
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Hmm. I need to check out the Harbor Freight Diamond stones. I completely forgot about that option. Might be a good less expensive alternative. The Nordics Skater stone is also interesting. Is that an 8" stone?

Thanks.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Might I suggest one of my Manticore bench stones? Flexible blades do require more support from the guiding hand in use, generally speaking, but having a truly aggressive stone in the arsenal can help a lot. The Manticore is a ANSI 60 (250 micron) while the DMT extra course is only a 60 micron. Even something like the Bull Thistle series is ANSI 120 (106 micron) and could give a noticeable increase in cutting speed.
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This is definitely an option. I seen great reviews on this stone. But, given the fact I am having problems with thinner more flexible blades, wondering if the added width of the DMT or other diamond stone might give a more stable platform making more contact with the blade. Basically wider plate/stone means more underneath support for a flexible blade. That being said, at that price I might just need to buy it regardless in addition to another coarse stone.
 
aleforme said:
Hmm. I need to check out the Harbor Freight Diamond stones. I completely forgot about that option. Might be a good less expensive alternative. The Nordics Skater stone is also interesting. Is that an 8" stone?

Thanks.
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Its 10" x3", rated 150/320. It is fast. The coarse side resists dishing, the fine side is a slight bit softer but still pretty hard.

Personally I prefer vitreous stones or waterstones for coarse work. The diamond plates are nice in they don't shed grit and scratch above the shoulder as much as stones that do shed, but the vitreous stones make more shallow scratches (all things being equal) and you can lean on them a little if you want.

That said, you'd probably do fine with any of the suggestions so far. The Baryonyx products are getting positive reviews, the DMT XC is a solid choice, the Foss stone is the one I grab most often, especially if setting up chisels or plane irons - stuff with a lot of real estate. I don't care for how it works dry or with oil - soaked in water its a beast.
 
aleforme said:
This is definitely an option. I seen great reviews on this stone. But, given the fact I am having problems with thinner more flexible blades, wondering if the added width of the DMT or other diamond stone might give a more stable platform making more contact with the blade. Basically wider plate/stone means more underneath support for a flexible blade. That being said, at that price I might just need to buy it regardless in addition to another coarse stone.
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You could buy two of them, lap them against each other on one long side, and glue them to each other and to an aluminum base plate or similar. You'd have a 4" stone.

Another option would be one of my Washboards (link through signature), at 2.5 x 11". A sheet of 120 SiC wet/dry makes short work of a worn bevel, and like the vitreous stones it makes less pronounced scratches than the DMT might. Has the added advantage of being used with other grit sheets right up to finishing and maintains a very flat edge compared to using the same materials over a flat surface - very aggressive with touch-ups when used with paper and the stock compound.
 
You should just have some nicely serrated blades for the people who are going to take them and cut ceramic plates. Everything you sharpen just gets dull fast... I don't know how you keep up with that.
The serration points get dull and in the middle they still stay sharp and you maybe use like a diamond steeling rod to "sharpen" it once in a while.

Otherwise, you will have some crazy coarse diamond plate and are going to be taking way too much metal off trying to raise the burr. These plates are better suited to get close to burr and raise it on higher grit. It's better for the edge in my opinion. This is all more fun to do on a nice coarse whetstone where you can apply pressure with you fingers and get good feedback and feel what's going on. It will slide better and be fast enough. It's not like these knives are made of supersteel that you need diamonds.
 
Sergeua said:
You should just have some nicely serrated blades for the people who are going to take them and cut ceramic plates. Everything you sharpen just gets dull fast... I don't know how you keep up with that.
The serration points get dull and in the middle they still stay sharp and you maybe use like a diamond steeling rod to "sharpen" it once in a while.

Otherwise, you will have some crazy coarse diamond plate and are going to be taking way too much metal off trying to raise the burr. These plates are better suited to get close to burr and raise it on higher grit. It's better for the edge in my opinion. This is all more fun to do on a nice coarse whetstone where you can apply pressure with you fingers and get good feedback and feel what's going on. It will slide better and be fast enough. It's not like these knives are made of supersteel that you need diamonds.
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Serrated steaks knives are another option that I'll probably go with eventually. It's just dang hard to cut into meat on a plate and not hit the plate. I've become good at it but the wife, not so much.
 
Victorinox's "Little Vicky" knives are pretty excellent for situations where you're contacting ceramic plates. I have like 4-5 of 'em and they're wonderful.
 
aleforme said:
This is definitely an option. I seen great reviews on this stone. But, given the fact I am having problems with thinner more flexible blades, wondering if the added width of the DMT or other diamond stone might give a more stable platform making more contact with the blade. Basically wider plate/stone means more underneath support for a flexible blade. That being said, at that price I might just need to buy it regardless in addition to another coarse stone.
Click to expand...

If the blade is at all curved then you'll only be able to make contact with a relatively narrow region of the stone, actually. It's just important to use your off hand behind the region you're trying to work to make sure that it's actually the region getting worked and at the angle you want it to be. The issue with flexibility is mostly that it reduces pressure between the blade and stone, which means it takes you much longer than if you can actually bear down on the blade without it flexing and relieving that pressure. :)
 
If you get good serrated knives and have diamond or cbd spyderco rods you can use corners of those and get good consistent results
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Might I suggest one of my Manticore bench stones? Flexible blades do require more support from the guiding hand in use, generally speaking, but having a truly aggressive stone in the arsenal can help a lot. The Manticore is a ANSI 60 (250 micron) while the DMT extra course is only a 60 micron. Even something like the Bull Thistle series is ANSI 120 (106 micron) and could give a noticeable increase in cutting speed.
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Thanks for all the replies and advise. I think for now, I'm going to try out the Manticore and see how it goes. No doubt the stone will cut as needed. I'm just curious if my inability to raise a burr on these specific knives is solely lack of technique or if it's the limitation of the stone? I'm guessing it's more technique and it's hard to beat the price of the Manticore for an 8" x 2" stone.
 
ale, what is your Norton combination stone made of? An 8" stone is a good size stone. I have sharpened some large knives 9-10"on just an 8X2" stone.
So, you have that going for you. DM
 
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My man Heavy Handed is a better sharpener than I am and he has more experience. You should listen to him. But here's my opinion anyway:

Nothing that I've tried equals the DMT XXC. The Atoma 140 is supposed to be similar, yet better. I have not yet tried it, but I bet it's pretty amazing.

The thing with the XXC is, it's extremely coarse at around 120 micron or ~100 grit. The diamonds bite deeply into steel. But it's also TOUGH. It doesn't wear easily like the DMT C does. If you press down hard on the DMT C, it's going to lose it's diamond coating. Ask me know I know. :)

The XXC resists wear quite well. Diamonds do not dislodge, even with moderately high pressure. ...and it cuts like a beast. I start many sharpening jobs with the DMT XXC and it rarely disappoints me. I think there's nothing like it. Always flat. Awesome cutting power. Doesn't get damaged like most diamond stones. It's fantastic. If mine were gone tomorrow, I'd have to look very hard between a new DMT XXC, a DMT flattening stone, and the Atoma 140.

Brian.
 
David Martin said:
ale, what is your Norton combination stone made of? An 8" stone is a good size stone. I have sharpened some large knives 9-10"on just an 8X2" stone.
So, you have that going for you. DM
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I've got a big IC11 combo crystolon/India combo stone. It's 11 1/2 by 2 1/2. I seem to have the same problem with it. The IC11 usually cuts really easily. That's why I'm thinking it's my technique.
 
bgentry said:
My man Heavy Handed is a better sharpener than I am and he has more experience. You should listen to him. But here's my opinion anyway:

Nothing that I've tried equals the DMT XXC. The Atoma 140 is supposed to be similar, yet better. I have not yet tried it, but I bet it's pretty amazing.

The thing with the XXC is, it's extremely coarse at around 120 micron or ~100 grit. The diamonds bite deeply into steel. But it's also TOUGH. It doesn't wear easily like the DMT C does. If you press down hard on the DMT C, it's going to lose it's diamond coating. Ask me know I know. :)

The XXC resists wear quite well. Diamonds do not dislodge, even with moderately high pressure. ...and it cuts like a beast. I start many sharpening jobs with the DMT XXC and it rarely disappoints me. I think there's nothing like it. Always flat. Awesome cutting power. Doesn't get damaged like most diamond stones. It's fantastic. If mine were gone tomorrow, I'd have to look very hard between a new DMT XXC, a DMT flattening stone, and the Atoma 140.

Brian.
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Thanks Brian. Glad to hear they can stand up to some use. I'm gonna try out the Monticore first and then maybe pick up the DMT XC or XXC down the road.

I want some Shapton Glass stones one day so the XXC or the Aroma 140 will be probably be needed regardless for flattening.
 
Also, thanks everyone for their advice. Much appreciated. I can't tell you how much I have learned on this forum.

And screw all of you for destroying my bank account! :p
 
I have the JUM-3. It's either this one or the JUM-4. I've used mine about 10 years and I enjoy it. You'll figure out whether it's technique or not. DM
 
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bgentry said:
My man Heavy Handed is a better sharpener than I am and he has more experience. You should listen to him. But here's my opinion anyway:

Nothing that I've tried equals the DMT XXC. The Atoma 140 is supposed to be similar, yet better. I have not yet tried it, but I bet it's pretty amazing.

The thing with the XXC is, it's extremely coarse at around 120 micron or ~100 grit. The diamonds bite deeply into steel. But it's also TOUGH. It doesn't wear easily like the DMT C does. If you press down hard on the DMT C, it's going to lose it's diamond coating. Ask me know I know. :)

The XXC resists wear quite well. Diamonds do not dislodge, even with moderately high pressure. ...and it cuts like a beast. I start many sharpening jobs with the DMT XXC and it rarely disappoints me. I think there's nothing like it. Always flat. Awesome cutting power. Doesn't get damaged like most diamond stones. It's fantastic. If mine were gone tomorrow, I'd have to look very hard between a new DMT XXC, a DMT flattening stone, and the Atoma 140.

Brian.
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I'd recommend the XXC but mine has been a disappointment in terms of longevity. Its only good for lapping waterstones now and I don't even use it for that very often. In fact of the DMTs I've purchased recently, I've gotten disappointing product about 30% of the time.

It seems when it comes to benchstones, the very low grit and very high grit are where it gets tough to find consistent performers. The Foss combination stone has been a great find for me, I can't recommend it enough for setting bevels - is not very good for stand-alone edges.

For more flexible steels like the OP is describing, it probably will come down to technique far more than the stone type - lots of support right at the point of contact and light pressure - these knives are probably not fully hardened and most coarse stones should eat them up.

Oh, and...I don't have anything on the guy who penned the Seven Secrets!

Once you get past a base level, everyone winds up producing great edges - after that it just comes down to speed and consistency and those aren't really an issue if sharpening for oneself.
 
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