Thinking of new stones; what would you do?

J

J. MacDonald

Joined
Jun 8, 2000
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3,140
I'm thinking of buying buying a large set of new benchstones, say 2"x6" or 2"x8". My choices are to go diamond (DMT), or get some high quality Arkansas stones while they're still available?

My choices would be probably a DMT DUO Stone in coarse/ fine or a Washita/ hard Arkansas combo (possible translucent or black).

I'm leaning toward the DMT solution because I mostly like modern, tough stainless steels (ATS-34, 154CM, BG-42, S30V, etc,)and am concerned about wearing out the organic stones. I must admit that the diamond solution seems to have a price advantage, but my heart says get real stones while I can. Then I could always buy diamond stones later. From what I hear, the supply of real stones is getting thin as the quarries are being mined out.

What would you do?

jmx
 
well a good diamond benchstone is great for reprofiling or sharpening that really dull butter knife but for maintenance use it'll probably be too coarse, i my self prefer the spyderco sharpmaker but if you got the skills to sharpen with a benchstone then go for it, again i prefer the ceramic or other man made stones since they pretty much last forever
 
The difference is speed, wear and cost. Arkansas stones cut very, very slowly and, because of that, wear very, very slowly and last nearly forever. They are a little pricey but they will serve for a long time. You need to be patient in their use except for touchups. Diamond are the fastest cutting stones (everything else is in between the two) but wear fastest as well. Whey they wear out, you simply discard them and replace them. In the long run they are more expensive to use but quite a bit faster. Another fast option is the waterstone which is almost as fast as diamond and can be flattened as it wears so it will last longer than diamond. The waterstone is less expensive to use than diamond.

Personally I use waterstones (Edgepro) and diamond (DMT Diasharp) most of the time. But I don't have the time to work away with a natural stone. To give you an idea, I did a set of Global kitchen knives(pretty hard steel)for a chef last night by "hand" with the Edgepro. The edges were gone and had to be reground. I completely wore out a nearly new coarse grit Edgepro stone just regrinding the bevels on 10 dull knives. But I did the job completely in less than an hour. I couldn't have done one knife in an hour with natural stones. Once the bevels were ground, the medium and fine grits honed them sharp very quickly and with little wear. Hope that gives you some guidance.
 
Hi Fred (Knife Outlet).
You say that diamond stones wear out. Others on BF have said that their DMT stones have lasted them a long time (years), with a fair bit of use. From my readings I have the impression that DMT stones will last for a long time provided that the user doesn't press too hard on the stones and tear the diamonds from their binding material. I'm thinking of buying some DMT Diasharp stones and was wondering if you could elaborate.
 
DMT's are under warrenty not to wear out. I would use Diamonds over natural hones any day for the ability to cut the hardest high allow heavily carbided steel. I would recommend a large x-coarse japanese waterstone and 80 grit lapping compound for any major stock removal and then a fine/x-fine DMT for finish sharpening. The x-fine DMT is 1200 grit or 10 micron, and is a fine shaving finish. An x-coarse/coarse DMT would speed the process up if you can afford it, you use that after the waterstone to lower the scratch pattern.

-Cliff
 
I would get both, and this is why. The DMT will do the best for resharpening/reginding in the edge at the angle you want, or fixing a dinged edge. The hard Ark will be used to put on the final edge and be used to maintain the edge. You will use both and both would give you a pretty complete set. I don't think you would be happy without either one if you don't get both.
 
Thanks for your quick answers, Cliff and db.
I'm going to start with a small, 4-inch DMT Diasharp stone in either a fine grit or an extra-fine grit. This should be good for carrying around for quick touch-ups. I'll give that a try and I'll see how I like it. By the way, I want the diamond stones for finer sharpening, as opposed to significant stock removal or rebevelling. For major stock removal I have a silicon carbide stone that I find works well.
I have other sharpening stuff, such as the Spyderco Sharpmaker and various stones, but this will be my first diamond product.
 
marty :

I want the diamond stones for finer sharpening, as opposed to significant stock removal or rebevelling. For major stock removal I have a silicon carbide stone that I find works well.
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Yes I use them the same way, the 1200 diamond is a very fine finish, and if you want to increase it just use the DMT paste which is available up to 1 micron which is many times finer than any Arkansas stone. Diamond does cut faster under low pressure than other hones, but you can really lean on the SiC hones and they then outcut the diamond plates then many to one, add some lapping compound and it increases again, use a very coarse sanding belt as a file and it increases yet again. I have altered the primary grind on knives (2-5" folders) using the latter method and it only takes a few minutes.

-Cliff
 
I really like my arkansas stones. I don't have a super high quality set, but they do a good job. I can bring the knife up to shaving on the hard arkansas. Then I finish it with a spyderco fine white ceramic, and sometimes a strop after that. I would like to get a black arkansas stone someday, but they are even more expensive than the ceramic stones.
If I have to remove a huge amount of material I use my belt grinder, and then a silicon carbide stone (something like 200 grit, so coarse that honing oil runs right through it) Using this method I can sharpen knives pretty quickly. The arkansas stones are showing absolutely no wear after 5 or siz years and probably 1000's of sharpenings. I have several knives that are hardened to RC62-64, both stainless and carbon, and the stones work fine for them too.
 
My Arkansas stones have been sitting unused in the garage for the last two years. I haven't found anything that really benefits from using them and they cut really, really, slow.

I would not get a hone that was under 8" long for anything but field use. To do a good job of honing you need to keep your strokes flat. You have problems and the begining and end of your stroke so the first and last 2" of the hone are hard to use. A 4" hone has almost zero "prime" honing length. In addition I like to have about an inch of prime honing length per inch of blade length. An 8" hone works great for 4" blades and is less great for kitchen knives. My favorite hones are 3" x 12" extra-fine diamond plates.
 
I wear out diamond "stones" regularly, DMT included. I wore out 2 DMT diasharps last month alone. Worn out doesn't mean no diamond grit left, it means the diamond grit is dull and doesn't cut fast any more. I like them, I recommend them, I use them. But they wear out. Users who don't wear them out don't use them very much. I normally use them about one or two hours per day. I suspect others don't use them 1 or 2 hours per year. Heck I wore out two coarse grit Edgepro stones (waterstones) just last night. They only last about an hour or two for me. It's all relative to use. Take care.
 
Well, I bought a DMT Diasharp 4" x 3/4", extra-fine. They were out of the fine stones. (At Atlas Machinery and Tools, on Queen St.) It seems pretty nice, so far. I'll probably get a fine-grit stone as well. I don't think I'll get a coarse Diasharp, though - I have other things for coarse sharpening.
As to Cliff's idea of using diamond paste to get a finer finish, I'll stick to using a strop with the Lee Valley green CrO honing compound, that's good enough for me. Diamond paste is kind of expensive and specialized for my needs.
Jeff Clark feels that a hone for home use should be at least 8 inches long, his favourite length being 12 inches, and that a 4-inch hone is best suited for field use. That idea makes sense based on regular sharpening methods, but 4 inches will work fine for me with my somewhat casual sharpening methods. I may get some longer Diasharp stones eventually, depending on my experience with the shorter ones.
The Diasharp stones, with their continous diamond surface, seem to be a better idea and a better value for the money, compared to the DMT stones with the spaces in between the diamonds. I know what the idea is behind the spaces on the other DMT stones, but I'll stick to the Diasharps.


Thanks for the advice, everybody.
 
This is a timely thread as I have been considering getting a Norton Diamond bench stone and an 8000 and 4000 Waterstone. As I read this thread, it would seem my money is better spent with a different combination.

Specifically, where would you purchase, what specifically would you purchase and, where do you get diminishing returns on expense?

The 3 8"x3" Nortons mentioned above are about $200US total. I have an EdgePro Apex with the accessory stones. Should I be looking at a cheap belt grinder with good belts or, really large bench stones?

Most of my daily use knives are 5 inch fixed blades. Everything from coarse edged field knives to Carter Muteki's and their fine edges. Most of my folders are ~4inches and a few fixed blades are 9 inches or slightly more. Most blade steels are mainstream (1095, 5160, D2, 440C, ATS-34, BG-42) but I also have some CPM 440V and CPM 3V knives.
 
marty :

I'll stick to using a strop with the Lee Valley green CrO honing compound, that's good enough for me. Diamond paste is kind of expensive and specialized for my needs.
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I would only recommend that for finishing high alloy hard carbide steels, or for someone with a lot of money to spare. One tube is a long supply though, polishing compound goes far on little.

Fred :

I wore out two coarse grit Edgepro stones (waterstones) just last night. They only last about an hour or two for me.
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I have used those hones Fred, I have a hard time believing that you wore the abrasive down to the base in an hour or two, if you can that is one hell of a physical effort. You could put a hollow in them in that length of time, but that can easily be lapped out. Why are you using the Edge Pro like that anyway?

I would do the initial rough shaping by hand if it was necessary to create an edge bevel, and then clean up and finish on the Edge Pro. This would be much faster and easier. If you are doing them as a service, why not make life a lot easier for yourself and use a $75 belt sander to do the initial shaping. That is one 1-2 minutes work and then you use the Edge Pro to finish.

Sid, the belt grinder is only really necesary if you want to alter the edge bevels or convert to convex edges. Yes the hones are expensive, but waterstones last a lifetime, as do the DMT's assuming you use them for sharpening not shaping which there are far better choices for, check out another current thread on reprofiling for details.

-Cliff
 
If you want Ark. stones you can still get them. In fact they're pretty cheap at smkw. When I lived in arkansas you could go into the small rivers there and find them fairly easy, with a little effort. Now mind you they werent cut, but they were fine, you could usually find one flat enough with some effort. And in hot springs right down the road from where I use to live you could buy a 4" stone for a couple of dollars. a six inch for a dollar more, ect
 
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