Thinning a Native?

M

mintstick

Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Messages
22
I was thinking about maybe picking up a Native from Wal-Mart to try to thin it out at home, using maybe a dremel? Would this be possible, or would it need to be sent off for such work? I don't have any knifeworking experience.
 
My Native is getting thinned out to nearly flat grind over time (every time it's sharpened), using a cheap coarse stone from the $.99 Store. Time consuming, yes, but it's far easier to make a mistake with a power tool.
 
mintstick said:
I was thinking about maybe picking up a Native from Wal-Mart to try to thin it out at home, using maybe a dremel? Would this be possible, or would it need to be sent off for such work? I don't have any knifeworking experience.
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i think it would be way too hard to maintain a consistent angle with a dremel. get a workable stone and pick a finger to use as your guide. I use my pinky to determine the angle for a thin edge. I use my middle finger for a more durable edge. You could also drop a few dollars and pick up a Lansky or similar setup.

and you should definitely pick the native up. IMHO...the Kershaw Leek and Spyderco Native are best things going at Wallyworld. I know..I know...Buck 110s are sold there also...but I don't like them so they don't exist.....in my own little world.
 
Just go to a skateshop or bikestore selling boards and ask for a sheat of grip tape. Cut it into sections and put a piece onto a flat piece of wood. Once it gets worn and full of ground off steel, take it off and put on another piece. It works great for this type of work.

As for the angle you should use, if you're going to thin it out, why not just go flat to the stone? Really easy to keep a consistent angle that way. ;)
 
Vivi said:
Just go to a skateshop or bikestore selling boards and ask for a sheat of grip tape. Cut it into sections and put a piece onto a flat piece of wood. Once it gets worn and full of ground off steel, take it off and put on another piece. It works great for this type of work.

As for the angle you should use, if you're going to thin it out, why not just go flat to the stone? Really easy to keep a consistent angle that way. ;)
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maybe for a straight razor...but i don't want to be sharpening my EDC every day.
 
There is a common misconception that lower angles mean increased frequency of sharpening.

-Cliff
 
Sounds like a good idea Vivi, thanks, may give it a shot.

Yes, morrow the Native is quite a good knife, I picked one up for a friend of mine, kind of wanted to keep it. :D
 
Cliff Stamp said:
There is a common misconception that lower angles mean increased frequency of sharpening.

-Cliff
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I don't think it is a misconception.....it think there are so many factors to consider that it boils down to knowing the work you'll be doing and putting the knife in the best condition to accomplish what needs done. I do a lot of heavy cutting and a thin edge (on my EDC) just doesn't hold up as long for me.
 
The generalization is a misconception. There is a point at which the edge has lost functional strength, up to that point the cutting lifetime increases as the cross section decreases. The compensation is to microbevel as required to produce the required functional strength.

-Cliff
 
morrowj_98 said:
I don't think it is a misconception.....it think there are so many factors to consider that it boils down to knowing the work you'll be doing and putting the knife in the best condition to accomplish what needs done. I do a lot of heavy cutting and a thin edge (on my EDC) just doesn't hold up as long for me.
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You can still go flat to the stone and microbevel to a more obtuse edge angle. I went flat to the stone and 15 per side microbevel and it was plenty durable. You could always go with a 20 per side microbevel if you are having trouble at 15 per side (the factory edge on mine was about 12.5 per side). Are you cutting metals, those would definately call for a more obtuse edge? I know I have found my edges to last longer when they are more acute, but if you are chipping out the thinner edges with your work you obviously need to go more obtuse. However, I would say for the most part the average user would be sharpening less, not more, with a more acute edge, and a flat to the stone Native is a lot more durable than a straight razor unless you have a bad heat treat. One of my EDC's right now is a Caly Jr. ZDP thinned to .005" above the edge, sharpened at 5 per side with a small microbevel. It hasn't touched a stone in a couple weeks, but after cutting up some cardboard, rope, plastic packaging and various other things over that 2 weeks it is still cutting very good and shaving with ease. I think you are selling short the benefits and actual durability of acute edges for lighter/medium duty work.

Mike
 
gunmike1 said:
You can still go flat to the stone and microbevel to a more obtuse edge angle. I went flat to the stone and 15 per side microbevel and it was plenty durable. You could always go with a 20 per side microbevel if you are having trouble at 15 per side (the factory edge on mine was about 12.5 per side). Are you cutting metals, those would definately call for a more obtuse edge? I know I have found my edges to last longer when they are more acute, but if you are chipping out the thinner edges with your work you obviously need to go more obtuse. However, I would say for the most part the average user would be sharpening less, not more, with a more acute edge, and a flat to the stone Native is a lot more durable than a straight razor unless you have a bad heat treat. One of my EDC's right now is a Caly Jr. ZDP thinned to .005" above the edge, sharpened at 5 per side with a small microbevel. It hasn't touched a stone in a couple weeks, but after cutting up some cardboard, rope, plastic packaging and various other things over that 2 weeks it is still cutting very good and shaving with ease. I think you are selling short the benefits and actual durability of acute edges for lighter/medium duty work.

Mike
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That's interesting and certainly worth exploring. I'll send you some of my knives to sharpen up. :D

Would you get the same results using an older Leek (440a)? I think you are benefiting much from the steel as well as your sharpening methods.
 
If you are doing harder type cutting and twisting wile you cut, basicly useing a knife without being real careful. A very thin, hollow grind down to .005 with a 5 degree edge isn't going to last very long at all, no matter what the steel is. Yes, thinner does cut better but thinner is also weaker. Just ask Gunmike to cut one of those thin wire ties commonly seen holding a toy in its box and see what kind of reaction you get. :)
 
morrowj_98 said:
cutting stuff :thumbup:

thin gauge wire.....very dense cardboard...network cables.
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Missed this post while I was writing. I haven't tried cutting network cables yet, but I will be cutting some thin gauge wire tomorrow. I'll let you know how the Caly Jr. works on that. I know that my knives at 8-10 per side with a 15 microbevel go through thin gauge wire with no trouble, however. Network cable may be a different story, but until I try some I won't know. A Native flat to the stone comes out about 7.5 per side if you have no convexing, which is tough to do by hand, so unless the heat treat is blown it should work out OK on that type of work unless you severely side load the edge, so shooting for straight cutting is ideal, but not always possible. Take a pesky .032" steel cored (that was the thickness of the steel sore with the insulation cut off of it) twist tie that came on my Daughter's Christmas present for instance. It chipped out my factory edged Manix (about 12.5 per side), a factory edged Endura in VG-10 (about 15 per side), and a AUS-6A CRKT with a 15 degree edge with a 20 degree microbevel (this softie chipped and rolled badly). It even chipped out the infamously tough INFI, which was at a pretty obtuse angle as well (20 per side or so, if not slightly more). At the recommendation of Thom Brogan I use nail clippers on those twist ties now, because it is just about impossible not to side load an edge when you are cutting them off of toys. I would have massive chips if I tried to cut that with my Caly Jr., so there are definate limits to what I cut with it. I do carry 3 knives on me though, the Caly Jr. for light duty, usually my Spyderco R2 or similar for medium duty, and my Manix for HD. The vast majority of what I cut (cardboard, plastic packaging & plastic ties, a little bit of rope) the Caly Jr. eats up with no durability issues. The only chip I have in the blade is from a packing staple I hit when I got careless breaking down a box, the knife goes through the cardboard so fast with so little effort you can lose concentration for a second and your cut goes off course.

As for your 440A Leek, I can't really comment on how it would perform at very acute angles. If it is soft then it will roll easily, just as some steels will chip at acute angles. I've just leaned from experience that for the steels I use and the cutting I do I can go pretty acute. ZDP 189 happens to do well at very thin angles due to the high hardness, but I've also had a Byrd in 8Cr13MoV work very well at a similar geometry to the Caly Jr., but it is also fairly hard at 60 RC. If you want I will sharpen a knife for you, just e mail me and I can thin it out and we can see how it works. Maybe some people with more experience with Kershaw's 440A and cutting network cable can chime in on what a good starting point on the geometry is. Unless you really twist it or the blade is really soft I'm guessing it will do OK at a 12 degree or less primary with a 15 to 20 degree microbevel, but the only way to find out is to thin it out and cut with it.

Mike
 
morrowj_98 said:
That's interesting and certainly worth exploring. I'll send you some of my knives to sharpen up. :D
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Send it to Tom Krein along with $35. You can do it yourself, but if you don't want the aggravation, he'll do it. You might be surprised at what a thin edge can do.
 
gunmike1 said:
As for your 440A Leek, I can't really comment on how it would perform at very acute angles. If it is soft then it will roll easily, just as some steels will chip at acute angles.
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Stiffness is cubic with lateral cross section so you can compensate for lack of strength with only minor changes in thickness.

-Cliff
 
I took my S30V Native flat to a coarse hone and ground on both sides until the hollow grind was gone. From there, the thickness of the blade just above the edge was 0.008" (may need to recheck as that was taken with plastic calipers). I put a polished edge on the knife at about 22-25 degrees per side and the knife provides good cutting ability because its relief grind is so thin yet it doesn't chip out like when the knife was thicker behind the edge, but the edge was 12-13 degrees per side. It behaves as advertized.
 
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