This bugs me

Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
13,182
From the news:

WASHINGTON — The Bush administration today will unveil a proposal to sell as much as 200,000 acres of national forest land in “isolated parcels” ranging from a quarter of an acre to 200 acres, much of it in California…………

Environmentalists contend the short-term gain would be more than offset by the loss of public land.

“I am outraged, and I don’t think the public is going to stand for it for one minute,” said Wilderness Society policy analyst Mike Anderson. “It’s a scheme to raise money at the expense of the national forests, the wildlife, recreation and all the other values that Americans hold dear. It’s the ultimate threat to the national forest.”…………

But Jerry Taylor of the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, said the proposed land sales make sense.

“Private property will end up in the possession of those who value it the most,” Taylor said. “That is an iron law of economics.”…….

The Forest Service owns 193 million acres of land and plans to sell about 175,000 to 200,000 acres, according to Forest Service spokeswoman Heidi Valetkevitch….

The lands in question aren’t environmentally sensitive wilderness or protected scenic areas, Valetkevitch said. “It could be something that’s in a neighborhood that people don’t even know is forest land,” she said.[/B]

Unfortunately the people who may value it the most, or at least the people who can buy it will be somebody who could put a development on it.

This is the tract that I am concerned about:

5c79.jpg


If it gets sold and something gets built on it it will ruin the view from Haystack Knob and the Canyon Rim.

Here is a view from Haystack Knob. The land in the back ground would be where the tract would be:

haystack3.jpg


Here is a picture across the rim looking at Haystack Knob (Pointy thing in distance)

The land would be to the left.

rimtrailhayst.jpg


Not sure how they came up with that the land was not scenic:rolleyes: Also this whole area is up for being declared wilderness since it adjoins Wilderness land already and is used a lot by hikers, backpackers and is a favorite place for deer and bear hunters.:thumbup:

I guess congress has to approve the sale and there's a period of public comment so hopefully enough people can chime in so this tract will be spared:thumbup:
 
Me too, I've written so many letters and sent so much email (i'm on the White House blocked list now), the Gov. wants the money to pay fpr Katrina, and at the same time want to eliminate royalties that oil and gas companies pay for pumping oil. The royalties = $5-7 billion, I can't seem to understand selling off public land because we need money and giving it away at the same time.
I'll probably get on the terrorist watch list next, all these emails and buying weapons of "semi mass destruction" in one week (10 khuks).
Enough.

Dick
 
cliff355 said:
Currently we get most of our lumber from Canada and pay through the nose for it because nobody can cut the stuff here. The resultant over-mature "National Forests" have become firetraps. Maybe it is time to put this land back in private hands since it is not being used for its intended purpose.

Cliff,

I don't know how it is where you live but the Monongahela National Forest land gets logged all the time. From their website:

"The forest's commercial timber sale program averages 30 'mmbf' (million board feet) of timber sold per year with a yearly average value of $7.5 million.

A variety of cutting techniques are used, from cutting of single trees to clearcutting blocks up to 25 acres in size. Regeneration cuts (clearcuts or other treatments designed to start a new timber stand) occur on approximately 1,300 acres yearly out of the more than 909,000 acres forest total."


Also most of this timber is oak not pine like what we get from Canada is mostly so that isn't really valid.

While I support timbering on forest land this state has a tremendous amount of privately held timberland and generally when the forest service sells land they absorb the cost of the roads which actually puts private landowners who wish to sell their timber at a competitive disadvantage because the cost of road building is not subsidized on their land.:thumbdn:

And, since Forest service land generates money why sell it off to the highest bidder? Once again from the Mon Website:

"Receipts for timber, grazing, land uses, minerals, and recreation use averaged $4,840,466 for FY 92-96, and 25% of that (an average of $1,210,116 per year) was returned to counties that include NF lands. This money is to be used by local schools and for roads. The remaining 75% each year is returned to the U.S. Treasury. "
 
I see we've wandered into timber cutting in this thread as well.

There are small patches of National Forest land spread out across the West. Sometimes a few acres. I see nothing wrong in cutting loose unimportant tracts. Naturally, what's unimportant to you may not be to Earth First.

The hills where I live used to be part of a national forest. The forest service 'traded' BLM for areas adjacent to larger forest tracts.

Like anything, it not the theory but actual practise which will have to be scrutinized. There is an immediate knee jerk reaction of 'hell no' and I'm not sure it escapes knee jerk territory.

Montana burned because of roadless access. So did So California. Some parcels of land are just too far apart and too small for the forest service to manage.

munk
 
munk said:
The hills where I live used to be part of a national forest. The forest service 'traded' BLM for areas adjacent to larger forest tracts.

Like anything, it not the theory but actual practise which will have to be scrutinized. There is an immediate knee jerk reaction of 'hell no' and I'm not sure it escapes knee jerk territory.

munk

Right. These particular parcels if you look at the map are adjacent to a large and important area. In fact if you look at the map I posted quite a bit of the land in the canyon below Haystack is private land. I would dearly like to that land bought by the USFS or they trade some other land for it to fill in that area. The whole Dolly Sods/ Roaring Plains/ Flatrock Plains is surrounded by ski resorts so it's fairly important to preserve the view. Bear Rocks one of the more important areas here was bought by the Nature Conservancy and then given to the Gov't.:thumbup:
 
According to the story in our newspaper, ther other part of ther same program is BUYING 100,000's of acres of land deemed more suitable to be part of the national land inventory.

HD, sound like you need to communiacte with your reps in Congress. They should undrestand and appreciate your arguments.
 
Thomas Linton said:
According to the story in our newspaper, ther other part of ther same program is BUYING 100,000's of acres of land deemed more suitable to be part of the national land inventory.

HD, sound like you need to communiacte with your reps in Congress. They should undrestand and appreciate your arguments.

That sounds good! Yes, I'll write Byrd and Rockefeller, my senators. However my congressman Nick Rahall I don't need to.

Members of the Committee on Resources

109th Congress

Richard W. Pombo, California, Chairman
Nick J. Rahall II, West Virginia, Ranking Democrat Member


In fact he's already done a press release on it:

http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/democrats/

I am so happy Rahall is my congressman. A lot of times you talk to your congressman about issues. With Rahall I just shake his hand and say "Thanks for the good job"

For his work on environmental issues, he is the recipient of the 1997 Citizen’s Coal Council award, the 1996 "Keeper of the Flame Award" presented in 1996 by Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt and the 1990 "Friend of the Earth Award" for his work on protecting the coalfield environment, the Sierra Club’s 1988 "Seneca Award" for Outstanding Environmental Stewardship, American River's 1988 "River Conservation Award,” and the Ansel Adams Award from the Wilderness Society in 2004.

Also:

Rated A by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun rights voting record.:thumbup:
 
Good plan.

If you do a Google search, you will find that this Administration, like those which went before, is criticised for buying land, selling land, NOT buying land, and NOT selling land.

The feds are committed to a thirty-year program to buy the Everglades at the rate of $100,000,000-$200,000,000/yr. In addition, since 2001, the feds have spent $400,000,000 - $145,000,000/ yr. to add to the public lands. (The Gov. owns 35% of California and over 89% of Alaska.)

Who's against feds owning land? Besides those who oppose on philosophical/political grounds, federal land ownership is opposed by local and state gov's who don't like 193,000,000 acres (current amount of land owned by the feds) off the tax roles AND those who think the fed's record in regards to land management is not all that super. Montana just made it illegal to sell state land to the feds except for limited purposes.

The proposal to sell up to 1% of currently-owned federal land -- while buying $100,000,000's-worth more a year -- is opposed by those with particular concerns, like HD, those who generally want the feds to own more and more property, and those who oppose anything proposed by the Administration.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Good plan.

If you do a Google search, you will find that this Administration, like those which went before, is criticised for buying land, selling land, NOT buying land, and NOT selling land.

Looks like my Google Search turned up only selling:thumbup: :

News results for Bush buying federal land - View today's top stories
Bush Proposes to Sell Off $1 Billion Worth of Public Lands - Environment News Service - Feb 15, 2006


Buying Real Estate from the US Goverment
Sources for buying real estate including land and commercial property from the
... Provides live database access to Federal land conveyance records for the ...
usgovinfo.about.com/blsalesreal.htm - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

US Government Info - Resources
Federal and state jobs, forms, the US Congress and president of the United ...
To foreign policy, Bush warned against taking "the road of isolationism and ...
usgovinfo.about.com/ - 40k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from usgovinfo.about.com ]

Amazon.com: Crimes Against Nature : How George W. Bush and His ...
Buy this book with The RIVERKEEPERS: Two Activists Fight to... by John Cronin today!
... gdegradations being allowed and even encouraged on federal land. ...
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ tg/detail/-/0060746874?v=glance - 132k - Cached - Similar pages

Amazon.com: Crimes Against Nature : How George W. Bush and His ...
... gdegradations being allowed and even encouraged on federal land. ... If you're
not going to buy the book, at least stand in the bookstore and read his ...
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ tg/detail/-/0060746882?v=glance - 133k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.amazon.com ]

Bush Moves to Open Some Federal Lands to Gas Drilling
(6/10) Imagine the federal government forced you to spend $180 to buy an 8-track
tape player. ... Bush Moves to Open Some Federal Lands to Gas Drilling ...
www.rppi.org/bushdrill.shtml - 43k - Cached - Similar pages

Bush budget would sell public lands - Environment - MSNBC.com
President Bush's proposed budget calls for raising $1 billion by selling off public
... The BLM proceeds would go to the federal treasury. The lands are ...
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11257181/ - 57k - Cached - Similar pages

IR // News // Bush administration seeks sale of Forest Service lands
Bush administration seeks sale of Forest Service lands. By EVE BYRON - IR Staff
Writer - 02/11/06. The federal government on Friday unveiled the list of US ...
www.helenair.com/articles/ 2006/02/11/montana_top/a01021106_01.txt - 37k
 
Heh...they try to do that on a whim, but damned if they can get thier crap together to open ANWR.

That chaps my cookies too. My favorite place in the world, Hatchers Pass is currently being sold to open a ski resort, an upper scale subdivision, and a convenience mall. I literally either stop myself just short of a redfaced, screaming, throwing, breaking things rage or bawling like a baby every time I think about it.

In a rapidly expanding community, it's one of the few places left to get out without driving all day. It's open to everyone from picnickers, to hunters, to recreational miners and motorhome driving tourists.

Here's one story of the proposed development:

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7358754p-7270836c.html

Here's just a couple off hand pics I googled of the area:

http://www.alaskajourney.com/anchorage/hatcher.html

http://www.wolfpaper.pl/travel/Alaska-2003_June/Matanuska.html

I'll post some of my own pics later on if anyone is interested.

I hate to say it but my own experience with this kinda thing is making me realize that there is definitely a place for the enviromental protection groups.

Hopefully the people in in that area will be loud and vehement about telling them "HELL NO!!"
 
“Private property will end up in the possession of those who value it the most,” Taylor said. “That is an iron law of economics.”…….

REPLY : Who is this guy trying to kid ? I guess it all depends on what your values are ?
 
Hollowdweller:

Dolly Sods -- one of my most favorite places on earth. Lived in Mineral Co. for 14 years, and spent a lot of time up on the Allegheny Front, Canaan Valley, Smoke Hole, South Branch, etc., but Dolly Sods was something else entirely. Truly another world up there. My wife and I took the CJ5 up to the Sods in the late 80s, beautiful day, was like 70s-80s in Mineral County. Was 40s up on the Sods, windy, clouded up and started sleeting. We had T-shirts, cut offs, sandals, and a windbreaker, canvas top was up but left the doors home. We got back down and went through Caanan Valley and it was 65-70 and light rain. Back home in Mineral Co. it was 75F cloudy and off and on drizzle.

Absolutely gorgeous country on Allegheny Front and Dolly Sods.

Noah
 
Home, Sweet Home.......at the time I retired as Special Agent in Charge, no one in West Virginia needed a recycled biology teacher, but Indiana did. I've had a great nine school years with no regrets other than missing the great scenery we had in W.Va.......In the fifteen years since Uncle Sam dragged me into Indiana, I've never missed a W.Va. hunting season, except for the one where they actually did my bypasses...Uuugh!
 
hollowdweller said:
Looks like my Google Search turned up only selling:thumbup: :
. . .
Environment News Service - Feb 15, 2006

Yes, those are the "buy more" or "hold" folks. Any group with "environment" in its name has a predictable position ( -- unless you want to build wind power machines near their fancy digs in New England. Then, it gets confusing). As a member of the Sierra Club for over thirty years and of the Nature Conservancy since its formation, I should know. 'Course, they are not trying to meet local budgets out of real estate tax revenue.

Amazon.com: Crimes Against Nature : How George W. Bush and His ...
Buy this book with The RIVERKEEPERS: Two Activists Fight to... by John Cronin today!
... gdegradations being allowed and even encouraged on federal land. ...
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ tg/detail/-/0060746874?v=glance - 132k - Cached - Similar pages

And this is a surprise how? And how relevant to the issue at hand? Sort of like talking about Senetor B's KKK leadership role when the issue is a SC nomination. Whenever a government policy is a "crime" or "degradation," the writer don't like it over much. "Rape" is also being used. We'll soon run out of special words to describe what Pol Pot did in Cambodia.

Bush Moves to Open Some Federal Lands to Gas Drilling
(6/10) Imagine the federal government forced you to spend $180 to buy an 8-track tape player. ... Bush Moves to Open Some Federal Lands to Gas Drilling ...
www.rppi.org/bushdrill.shtml - 43k - Cached - Similar pages

Again, not relevant to the issue, but some heat their homes with natural gas. I can see it now, "Bush fails to insure national gas supply, Presidential candidate and former Frist Lady Hillary repoprts." (If Hillary says it, it's a "report." If an Administration rep sayas its, it's a "claim.")

Not sure how 8-tracks enter into it. Are they more "environmentally friendly than CD's? If so, I have a collection (Thought it was the next Big Thing.)

Bush budget would sell public lands - Environment - MSNBC.com
Yes, MSNBS.COM If it's former President Clinton, it's "President Clinton." If it's President Bush, it's "Bush."

Bush's proposed budget calls for raising $1 billion by selling off public
... The BLM proceeds would go to the federal treasury.
Not accurate. They should get over 2000 and read.

You want links to reality? Links to follow.
 
Recomendations for sale or special dispersment of resources occur at a local level. That is, somewhere up the Federal chain is a coordinator gathering the local recomendations of Forest and BLM officials regarding land tracts. Local recomendations are based upon local characters- businessmen, foresters, ranchers, green peacers, etc.

We could probably find many of the proposed sales beneficial and some less so. We could probably find someone getting rich locally.


munk
 
OK. Quite easy to find. You just can't find it by searching "Bush Rapes the Land." :D I searched "federal" and "land" + "purchase" or "purchased" or "buy" or "bought."

The federal government, in all it's aspects, owns about 30% of the United States - 654,000,000 acres. Los Vegas Review Journal, 2/7/06

The Bureau of Land Management alone administers about 260,000,000 acres, mostly in twelve western states. (261,848,120 as of 06/15/05)www.blm.gov/nhp/news/legislative/pages/2005/te050615.htm

The proposal is to raise $432,000,000 by selling up to 325,000 acres over five years. That's a whopping .05% [5/10,000] of the present total. :eek: WashingtonPost.Com [no less!] 02/10/06.

Meanwhile, the Gov is buying land under the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act of 1965.

A table showing purchases of 40,000 acres by the U.S. Forest Service under LWCF in fiscal 2005 is at www.FS.Fed.us/land/staff/LWCF/tbl-A_LWCF.html

A table showing plans to purchase lots more in 2006, with locations, is at www.FS.Fed.us/land/staff/LWCF/budgetrequest.html

At the same time, the Bureau of Land Management is doin' it's thing. During the period Fiscal 2000,2001 [Clinton], 2002, 2003, and 2004, it bought and sold with a net DISPOSAL of 679,804 acres!!!! Where was the medja when this "rape" was going on. That's over twice what "Bush" wants to sell.
Oh, that's right. It started with "President Clinton."

A table of disposals and acqjuisitions by state is at www.blm.gov/nhp/news/legislative/pages/2005/teo50615.htm.

Two examples:
Oregon - sold 156,342 bought 63,592
Utah - sold 116,906 bought 118,056

Montana outlaws many sales of state land to feds: www.heartland.org/article.cfm?artid=12598.
Any search with "Montana, land, federal, state" should find it.
 
I have maps of various Montana quads which show the land is checkered by State parcels. Never quite saw anything like it.



munk
 
While I am sure all the land in question won,t be paved over or made into shopping malls it is rare once a road is paved that the pavement would be torn up and the land returned to its natural state . Once a piece of land is developed it usually stays developed .
It is rare for people who only visit the country to truly value land for itself not just for income it may produce .The more country that is developed the less connection we will have with the land .
I realise a society that lies dormant is prone to stagnation . I am at the stage where I am trying to live with the land instead of trying to dominate it or conquer it . I think the greatest thing I could achieve is to leave no lasting mark upon the land after my death . If I could instill this value in my children it is the only lasting effect I need have .
 
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