This is gonna sound crazy....but

W

Wrenchbender_E

Joined
Jul 23, 2010
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is it possible to sand a medium arkansas stone down and make it into a fine stone? Or are the two cut from different density stone?

I do not have access to a fine/ultra fine stone here at the FOB. My knives are sharp enough to shave hair and cut me deep, but I was looking for that little extra......if ya know what I mean ;)

Thanks in advance....

-WB
 
The grit size of a stone comes from the size of the particles that make up the stone. Sanding only 'shapes' one surface of the top of the particle. When that particle rubs off, (which it will do in just a few strokes of the blade) you are back to the same size particle you started with before you sanded. So the short answer is 'no, it will not give you a fine grain stone.'

Stitchawl
 
Wrenchbender_E said:
is it possible to sand a medium arkansas stone down and make it into a fine stone? Or are the two cut from different density stone?

I do not have access to a fine/ultra fine stone here at the FOB. My knives are sharp enough to shave hair and cut me deep, but I was looking for that little extra......if ya know what I mean ;)

Thanks in advance....

-WB
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Interesting you should bring this up. I very recently decided to do a full lapping of my soft and hard Arkies. The short answer is this - No, the density of the stone determines how it will cut and the Washita, soft, hard, and translucent all have differing densities. All Arkansas stones have the same size abrasive particles, they're just packed tighter in the higher density stones. The voids in the lower density stones allow for a more aggressive grind with a larger scratch pattern, the higher density stones have smaller voids and more abrasives - finer grind pattern. Far and away the density of the stone is the biggest factor in how fine an edge it can produce.

The longer answer is - yes, you can alter the cutting characteristics somewhat by using different grit stones/ sandpaper to lapp the Arkansas. After nearly going blind staring through a loupe after lapping my hard Arkansas with a progressive range of diamond stones finishing off with an extra fine DMT, The resulting edge appeared to be more refined than what it could produce after being lapped with a fine diamond stone or a fine SiC stone. I thought I was really on to something, but further observation burst my bubble. It cut very slowly and not very clean, though it did polish the edge nicely, and the scratch pattern didn't really change either. Almost like it performs when its getting choked or a little glazed. Ultimately I lapped it with a SiC bench stone and it cuts a lot faster and produces a better quality edge IMHO. So...sanding it with a finer grit will change how it cuts, but not really alter what its capable of producing.

HH
 
Kinda what I figured, but thought I'd check with the masses before calling it a bust. I knew someone had to have tried it before and I didnt want to screw up my stone experimenting since I cant get another right now. I would be forced to use a sharpening kit that I am not fond of to say the least.... Good news is I can take the diamond stones that came with it and sharpen manually if need be, but they are only course and what they call fine (750 grit). Its plenty sharp enough for what I require now. I'll search for some whetstones once I get home. Thanks guys!!
 
Heavy, I've experienced most of what you state . However, a lot of different mfg./producers sell Arkansas stones . From roadside venders (just drive thru Hot Springs) to Norton which is were the best quality, grades and finish stones come from . But I've recieved some Arkansas stones from friends that looked like they were purchased from these roadside vendors . As they were useless as sharpening stones just not finished . Needed leveling inorder to allow a knife to be sharpened on them . So, this is what I did . Now, these stones are very usable and capable of sharpening . It does take sometime to sharpening off the lapped surface and get the stone back to its original abilities 2-3 knives for me . It could be I rubbed them longer or something . Wrench, you might just try stroping the blade on your leather belt this should step it up a noch . I get a real good edge just coming off the Washita . The last several strokes need to be light . DM
 
HeavyHanded said:
Far and away the density of the stone is the biggest factor in how fine an edge it can produce.

Yes, I agree. You've been reading .

The longer answer is - yes, you can alter the cutting characteristics somewhat by using different grit stones/ sandpaper to lapp the Arkansas.

HH
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Mine lasted more than somewhat longer . Also, the denser packed stones are harder allowing one to sharpen harder materials . Yet, the grain structure prevents fast cutting . DM
 
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David Martin said:
Heavy, I've experienced most of what you state . However, a lot of different mfg./producers sell Arkansas stones . From roadside venders (just drive thru Hot Springs) to Norton which is were the best quality, grades and finish stones come from . But I've recieved some Arkansas stones from friends that looked like they were purchased from these roadside vendors . As they were useless as sharpening stones just not finished . Needed leveling inorder to allow a knife to be sharpened on them . So, this is what I did . Now, these stones are very usable and capable of sharpening . It does take sometime to sharpening off the lapped surface and get the stone back to its original abilities 2-3 knives for me . It could be I rubbed them longer or something . Wrench, you might just try stroping the blade on your leather belt this should step it up a noch . I get a real good edge just coming off the Washita . The last several strokes need to be light . DM
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My soft and hard stones are good quality from B&C abrasives (not sure they're in business anymore) but both needed a good lapping just to level 'em out. The Washita from Woodcrafters is a fantastic stone. I won't buy a natural stone without seeing it in person. I ordered a "ultra fine black surgical" not long ago and had to send it back - it wasn't even close to being a finishing stone - more coarse than my soft Arkie.

Wrenchbender, FWIW the average soft Arkansas produces the all-around best utility edge for an EDC knife. About fine as you can get before the teeth are so small they no longer catch, fine enough to clear arm hair and chop some facial whiskers, but will still get traction on tougher materials - rope, webbing (IMHO).

HH
 
Heavy, This is interesting . As my Arkansas stones purchased from Woodcraft were poorly finished along the lines with the roadside vendors . I purchased two from them in 2008 these I had to level . One stone a twin grit (soft/hard) came out fine the other a 3X8" black was so bad I could only get one side usable . Should have sent it back . I put coarse slurry on one side of my Washita to create a more aggressive cutting stone thus giving me four grits with Arkansas stones . DM
 
The quality and finish really vary from one stone to the next, though it seems they can all be brought up to a useful state with enough lapping. One of the reasons I'm so reluctant to order another select (ultra fine) Arkansas through the mail though I'd very much like to add a good translucent to the collection (any suggestions for a quality source?). My Washita is a nice aggressive cutter, can reprofile and raise a utility edge in one step. By the time I get to my hard, I just keep adding more dishsoap to the stone and less water. It tops out right at the start of hair whittling and I cannot get it one iota finer than that. Have considered a Spyderco UF benchstone as a finisher because there isn't a single local venue for translucent Arkies.
 
Heavy, Try Nortonsharpeningstones.com (something close) or Sharpeningsupplies.com out of Amarillo, TX.. They carry lots of Norton products . Just checked and they have one . My black hard feels alittle finer than my translucent . Both give good edges . DM
 
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Basically just trust in Norton to QC the stock? I've heard they sell first-rate stuff, I'll have to check it out. Last time I did, the price was pretty high (Spyderco UF was less than 1/2 the cost), but I'm sure if I were to find one locally I'd be paying top dollar anyway. How much better is your translucent than a standard hard? I have a difficult time putting any more bucks into my gear at this point because I feel in terms of edge retention and utility my hard is already too fine. I'd love to have it just to see what I can do with it anyway, but I'm not planning on straight-razor shaving any time soon.

HH
 
Heavy, yes . The translucent gives a small step up from my hard and the black another small step up from the translucent . Your correct the resulting edge is more for shaving .
I've shaved with these edges and thats where it makes a noticable difference . In terms of economics the Spyderco fine is the route to go and it will cut more steels . Unless you stumble across good deal . DM ;)
 
Clay, I think the Arkansas stones on your site are from Norton and the prices looked
competive . I remember when the natural stones (Arkansas) were close to the cost of man made . Then mining cost went up so, if you have an old one still in usable shape best hang onto it . Or run check in Grandad's old tool box . DM ;)
 
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I really like the results I get from my Arkansas'. I'm not sure I can pull the trigger on a synthetic stone. I'm also pretty sure if I do opt for a finer stone I'll have to use it - a lot. Then I'm out the cash and a ton of my very limited personal time...
On the other hand, after slowly improving my technique and understanding of hand sharpening, I've been stalled for years at the current level cause I'm too cheap to upgrade. Might be time to gift myself with a Spyderco UF or translucent Arkie and challenge myself again.

HH
 
Its not just the stone in and of its self that imparts sharpness to an edge . Its both technique and the stone that raises the level of the edge . Heck, you might could arrive at that higher level just by use of a good leather strop after coming off your hard Arkansas and those are cheap to make . Looking back and listing the cost of my natural Arkansas stones, the only man made material that comes close to their higher cost is diamond . DM
 
Well, here's where I'm at with the strop. I can smooth the edge my hard Arkansas imparts, but cannot really make it finer. That is to say it will shave a little better, but since the cutting edge isn't narrower it doesn't seem to cut better in an absolute sense (hope this makes sense). Something is needed to shrink the cutting edge, and in my understanding that would be a finer grained stone. Maybe I just need to get better compounds for my strop - currently Flexcut gold and Aluminum oxide from Sears. Neither seem to be very fine.

HH
 
Yes coming off my hard Arkansas and stropping I get a nice shave . I use the green rouge as well (Sheffield Knife Supply) and Hand America has some good CO . Keep working at it you'll figure it out . It could be the edge on your knife is thick making it more difficult that way . Right around 1000grit and stropping is where the good shaves start to happen . DM
 
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HeavyHanded said:
Maybe I just need to get better compounds for my strop - currently Flexcut gold and Aluminum oxide from Sears. Neither seem to be very fine.
HH
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They aren't. :(

You need to pick up a little bit of very good compound and give that a try. You will be amazed at the difference. Instead of buying from Sears, (which does work well for the home handyman but isn't the place for the artist,) pick up some compound made by HandAmerican and you'll see the difference instantly. Some liquid chromium oxide or some finer diamond paste or spray, and you'll have edges that will astound you!

Stitchawl
 
David Martin said:
Yes coming off my hard Arkansas and stropping I get a nice shave . I use the green rouge as well (Sheffield Knife Supply) and Hand America has some good CO . Keep working at it you'll figure it out . It could be the edge on your knife is thick making it more difficult that way . Right around 1000grit and stropping is where the good shaves start to happen . DM
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I would have imagined needing to go quite a bit finer than that. The Norton 8000 grit waterstone seems to be the benchmark stone for many str8 shavers. I think my hard Arkie weighs in somewhere around 2-4000 - difficult to say. I've been able to use my EDU coming off a hard Arkansas with a light strop on aluminum oxide for shaving around the goatee, but it isn't what I'd call comfortable, and nowhere near a disposable.

I know the CO is better than many of the other compounds out there, but didn't think it was that big of a quantum leap forward. It almost seems like I could use the Flexcut for maintaining my EDU knives and the CO for the super-deluxe treatment on a select few. FWIW the Flexcut gold gets very high marks among the woodcarving crowd where folks might be stropping several times in a sitting for the trickier work. It does a fantastic job coming off the soft Arkansas and does a great job with the belt sander on a cork belt for finishing up larger blades following a 320 grit belt.

The grit size must be too large/aggressive to follow my hard Arkansas (?).

I'm going to have to pick up some CO along with new strop material. How many passes (ballpark guess, I know the strop material itself will be a big factor as well as how nicely the edge is cleaned up on the stone itself) should it take with good technique to see a big difference coming off the stone? As for my edge bevel, I'm pushing it now in my experience. 23 inclusive and for my harder use knives I go as wide as 30-32 degrees. If I'm going wider than that I'm working on an axe.

Thanks for the feedback!

HH
 
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