When looking at knife companys you are bound to find a few that claim there product is the best. They also atempt to demonstrate this by different tests. I am not saying that the tests don't show quality but I can't help but wonder if most quality knives would be able to do the same thing. Some of the tests show normal knife work while others show abuse. The one's that show abuse are great if the knife has an unconditional warrenty. Most knives do not so if I by a "tough" knife and then one day HAVE to use it as a prybar and it snaps at a 15 degree angle what good did that test do for me? I guess I feel that if companys are going to back up your knives with these tests then they should also offer a warrenty that covers the things they do in the tests. I personaly would not abuse any of my knives unless there is no other option. Now if a company shows a knife that flexes in a vise up to a 40 degree angle and will return to true then prying (as long as the knife is not bent past that 40 degrees) should not constitute abuse. Maybe I expect too much, Sorry if I'm ranting
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Those "tests"
- Thread starter will22
- Start date
Will,
The flex test is designed to show that the blade is properly tempered, not to prove it can be used as a pry bar.
Here's the ABS master testing procedure:
http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ABS_MSTest.htm
Some of these tests have found their way into some of the factory offerings in a somewhat perverted way as a form of marketing. This hype usually stops just short of explaining the REAL reason the tests are valid, and leaves the viewer with a somewhat distorted view.
I believe our old friend on the radio would end it by saying "And now you know the rest of the story"
The flex test is designed to show that the blade is properly tempered, not to prove it can be used as a pry bar.
Here's the ABS master testing procedure:
http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ABS_MSTest.htm
Some of these tests have found their way into some of the factory offerings in a somewhat perverted way as a form of marketing. This hype usually stops just short of explaining the REAL reason the tests are valid, and leaves the viewer with a somewhat distorted view.
I believe our old friend on the radio would end it by saying "And now you know the rest of the story"
Cliff Stamp
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will :
A lot of the times they do, this is one of the drawbacks of commenting on performance in isolation, it leads to hype.
Yes, if you are going to promote your knife as having some ability, it is meaningless unless you guarantee that this in fact the expected behavior of the knife, common sense should dictate that.
-Cliff
A lot of the times they do, this is one of the drawbacks of commenting on performance in isolation, it leads to hype.
Yes, if you are going to promote your knife as having some ability, it is meaningless unless you guarantee that this in fact the expected behavior of the knife, common sense should dictate that.
-Cliff
Most of thses "tests" are interesting, but of very limited value, due to a lack of objective standards to use as a basis of comparison.
This issue comes up from time to time and it always amazes me that there actually seems to be quite a bit of resistance in the knife community to the adoption of industry-wide standards of comparison. It seems that in the auto industry, the auto magazines can find reasonable standards by which to compare things far more complex than knives but we seem to struggle to find standards for things no more intricate than a slab of steel and a handle (I realize it's not that simple
)
Just my "50 cents".
This issue comes up from time to time and it always amazes me that there actually seems to be quite a bit of resistance in the knife community to the adoption of industry-wide standards of comparison. It seems that in the auto industry, the auto magazines can find reasonable standards by which to compare things far more complex than knives but we seem to struggle to find standards for things no more intricate than a slab of steel and a handle (I realize it's not that simple
)Just my "50 cents".
I have never really understood the flex angle as some sort of great measure of a blade's strength. The thinnest blades will flex the most (for instance, fillet knives), but require little force to flex them. If you make a very thick bowie out of the same steel, it will flex fewer degrees, but it will take much more force to do so. If you are comparing different steels under the same conditions, I would be interested in the results, not so much the flex angles but the force needed to put a set bend in the blade, and/or to break it.
Cliff Stamp
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The flex angle should be linear with thickness, so you can make a first order comparion in that manner. Though yes, obviously the force required should be given as well. Really soft backs can take bends to extreme angles, as well as blades with heavy tapers, however they are very easy to bend, so the extreme flex isn't really of any practical use. Where the blade takes a set is more important to me than how far it can go past this, though both points should be noted for completeness.
Usually aspects are ignored as they are the weakpoints. As for resistance to standard testing, in the knife community this comes from the users as well as the makers. However there are makers that support this, Busse Combat for example always has done so. HI again always encourages testing of their blades against others. Of course those two companies make very high end blades so they are comfortable taking such positions, which you would in general expect.
-Cliff
Usually aspects are ignored as they are the weakpoints. As for resistance to standard testing, in the knife community this comes from the users as well as the makers. However there are makers that support this, Busse Combat for example always has done so. HI again always encourages testing of their blades against others. Of course those two companies make very high end blades so they are comfortable taking such positions, which you would in general expect.
-Cliff
Cliff,
I think that the point I wanted to make is that flex angles are near meaningless when comparing blades of differing thickness and geometry, otherwise we can conclude that something like a fillet knife is some how much better than a bowie based on flex angle. If force/bending moment needed set and/or break (and to a lesser extent flex angle) are used to compare identical blades with differing steels and/or heat treatments, then you have some meaningfull testing.
I think that the point I wanted to make is that flex angles are near meaningless when comparing blades of differing thickness and geometry, otherwise we can conclude that something like a fillet knife is some how much better than a bowie based on flex angle. If force/bending moment needed set and/or break (and to a lesser extent flex angle) are used to compare identical blades with differing steels and/or heat treatments, then you have some meaningfull testing.
I know that Busse backs up there product 100% and that is great, I wish all companys would follow in there lead. I guess the point of my thread was more to say that other companys that high priced "performance" knives should do so also. If I spend $400 on a production knife I want a good warentee. Also I would like to see some of the other good knife companys put there knives to the same tests even if it is just to say that any quality knife can pass these tests. I'm sorry but I just won't beleve that a knife is the best in the world just from someone chopping ropes or bending it. The only way I can make that determination is when I have it in my hand and I put it to the test, The test of daily work for quite a few years.
Cliff Stamp
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There is no argument that a bend and some rope cutting covers all aspects of use, though it covers a lot more ground than most would think. In any case, when someone stops by and asks you about performance it isn't realistic to suggest they follow you for a year. You have to come up with a few things that can be related to actual performance and are easy to duplicate on a regular basis.
For example while chopping a 2x4 isn't an actual use a knife is put to very frequently, it is of course very similar to cutting fresh wood (of a similar grade and season). Thus you can predict how a knife will do for wood cutting in general by hacking on some scrap. Rope cutting ability translates very well to performance in lots of materials such as fabrics, and even foods as you can examine edge aggression as well as wedging ability.
There is also no harm in suggest tests if you see a maker or manufacturer overlooking an aspect of performance which you think is critical. Suggest something that would allow some judgement to be made on the blades ability in that area.
-Cliff
For example while chopping a 2x4 isn't an actual use a knife is put to very frequently, it is of course very similar to cutting fresh wood (of a similar grade and season). Thus you can predict how a knife will do for wood cutting in general by hacking on some scrap. Rope cutting ability translates very well to performance in lots of materials such as fabrics, and even foods as you can examine edge aggression as well as wedging ability.
There is also no harm in suggest tests if you see a maker or manufacturer overlooking an aspect of performance which you think is critical. Suggest something that would allow some judgement to be made on the blades ability in that area.
-Cliff
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- Aug 10, 2001
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The ABS test is not so much a test of a knife as it is a test of the knifemaker... his ability to master the steel he is using. Whether it's 5160, 1084, O1, etc... The rope tests mostly edge geometry and sharp, the 2x4 tests toughness, the shaving part tests edge holding(HT), and the bend tests the ability to differential HT. You have to have the (to put it in Ed Caffrey's terms) Total Package. Good angle for rope cutting can lay over on the 2x4, good angle for 2x4 can be too steep for the rope. Bottom line, the maker needs to test his own work to know what works well and what doesn't. After time, he just knows his work and what it'll do. I can't get, or even EXPECT the same performance out of a stock removal ATS 34 blade as I can one of my forged 1084 blades.
Every single knife I make goes through my tests including cutting, chopping, brass rod, etc... Occasionally, about every dozen blades or so, I test one of my knives to the point of destruction just like the ABS test... not to test my knife, but to test ME!
If I build a larger knife that will cut rope and a 2x4, hold an edge, a skinner might go through some rope, a dowel rod. Both had better shave afterwards. If both complete the tasks, they're keepers. I feel confident they will hold up for me or one of my coustomers.
Every single knife I make goes through my tests including cutting, chopping, brass rod, etc... Occasionally, about every dozen blades or so, I test one of my knives to the point of destruction just like the ABS test... not to test my knife, but to test ME!
If I build a larger knife that will cut rope and a 2x4, hold an edge, a skinner might go through some rope, a dowel rod. Both had better shave afterwards. If both complete the tasks, they're keepers. I feel confident they will hold up for me or one of my coustomers.
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2001
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- 65
Thanks Frank.