Thoughts and Questions about Paper Wheels

L

Lagrangian

Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
400
In the words of virtuovice: "Hi knife people!" :)

I recently built a sharpening rig, which has been a ton of fun:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Inspired-by-WickedEdge-and-ApexPro-Pict-Heavy

But now I'm also curious about paper-wheels and powered sharpening systems as well. So I have a couple of naive questions about paper-wheels and grinders:

(1) Why are paper-wheels slotted? Are there non-slotted paper-wheels, and if so what are the trade-offs?

(2) I'm a little afraid of using power-tools on un-clamped knives. Assuming that you could dial in any RPM that you want, what is the lowest RPM that you, personally, would find useful in practice?

(3) I'm fascinated by the grinding/honing system by Tormek. I very much like the Tormek idea of the grinding wheel turning through a resevoir of water, so that the wheel always has a complete/thick coating of water to keep the blade-steel cool (and therefore protect the heat-treatment from user error). The Tormek has a slow enough RPM that the water does not fly off the wheel.

Suppose instead of a paper-wheel, we replaced it with a polymer-wheel which was water-proof. Next, suppose we lined the rim with something like wet&dry abrasive, or 3M (micro) lapping film, and had the wheel turn through a resevoir of water? Any thoughts about whether this would actually work in practice? I'm thinking about it, but my concern is that the wet&dry/lapping-film might load up with swarf too easily and make it impractical.

(4) I'm interested in a jig that holds the knife at a precise angle relative to the wheel. Would something like a Tormek knife-jig work on a paper wheel?
http://www.tormek.com/en/jigs/svm140/index.php

(5) What are the differences/tradeoffs between a grinding system (like Tormek) and a paper wheel (like Razor Sharp Edgemaking System) ?
http://www.tormek.com/en/
http://www.sharpeningwheels.com/products.html

(6) How the heck does the "Tormek Stone Grader" work? (I'm not sure that for abrasives that I know, that a coating of finer abrasives over coarse sandpaper would be the same as fine sandpaper.)
Video: http://www.tormek.com/en/accessories/sp650/video_sp650_en.php
Product page: http://www.tormek.com/en/accessories/sp650/index.php


Any thoughts/comments/critiques are welcome; please chime in! :)

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
-------------------------------------------------------------
"What grit sharpens the mind?"--Zen Sharpening Koan
 
lagrangian, you posted quite a few questionis about the paper wheels. i'm sort of the paper wheel guru on the forums and i hate to type if i can keep from it. if you live in the states or canada i would be glad to give you a call and answer your questions. send me an email with your number and i'll give you a ring. rje196021@gmail.com


some of your questions would be answered if you would read my paper wheel thread (which i started back in 2008 2 days from today).

a lot of your ideas have already been thought of but will not work due to safety reasons and or the impossibility to make it work properly. in the 20 years i have used them, i have thought of just about any idea anyone can come up with.

here is the link to my paper wheel thread.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578787


i looked at your jig you made. i used to use a guided system years ago until a buddy showed me the paper wheels. i'll never go back to a guided system ever again since the wheels can sharpen anything out there, even scissors and sheet metal shears. yesterday i made a post about the guided systems that you might find interesting. its also another reason i'll never go back to a guided system of any kind. they are just not what they are cracked up to be in my opinion. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...use-to-finish-your-edge?p=9929091#post9929091
 
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@richard j:

Looks like a very long read, but Thanks! :)

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian

------------------------------------------------------------
"What grit sharpens the mind?"--Zen Sharpenig Koan
 
thanks for the links richard, I gotta get me sum paper wheelsss...... My knife sharpening skills leave a lot to be desired :grumpy: It's very therapeutic using stones & freehanding it until I check the edge and it's about as sharp as a butter knife. :thumbdn: Been trying the lanksy to no avail as well, lol.

I want to get my gayle bradley as sharp as folks on BF have shown theirs to be.
 
Czechmate said:
thanks for the links richard, I gotta get me sum paper wheelsss...... My knife sharpening skills leave a lot to be desired :grumpy: It's very therapeutic using stones & freehanding it until I check the edge and it's about as sharp as a butter knife. :thumbdn: Been trying the lanksy to no avail as well, lol.

I want to get my gayle bradley as sharp as folks on BF have shown theirs to be.
Click to expand...
you mentioned gayle bradley, check out this post by a member who sent his off to someone else and had me sharpen his xm 24 blade. my sharpening job outdid the other guys :D
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9207988&postcount=710
 
Yep, that's where my GB's at right now, it'll shave hair, but the edge doesn't seem to last, nor does it have the "bite" I'm looking for... Ok, now I HAVE to buy me some paper wheels!

Richard, do you have any links/recommendations for your wheels of choice & required supplies that are not too expensive?... I already have an 8" bench grinder.
 
sharpeningwheels.com is the maker. you can get them at any woodcraft store or order them through grizzly imports. dont buy cheap wheels like i did. they are junk and not worth the little bit of money you might save.
 
Yeah, I love the paperwheels too! Its a great way to put a very sharp, good edge on a knife. The only thing I have run into that I don't necessarily like is that you are stuck with one type of finished edge. I have been playing around with polished vs toothy edges lately, and it seems for EDC that the toothy edge performs better for this task. I don't know of a way (and I may be wrong) that you can finish an edge on the paper wheels and have it be toothy. is there a way to do this richard? maybe using the wheel then going to a leather strop instead of the slotted wheel?? also, if you are wanting precise angles for testing purposes or other purposes, the paper wheels are probably not the way to go. don't get me wrong! i absolutely LOVE my set of wheels and will probably always have them... i sharpen a good number of knives on them monthly. but i just wanted to throw the above points out there to ya.

i'm not sure how that jig works necessarily, but one thing I would consider would be to make it to where you can angle your knife to compensate for the curve in the edge near the tip. maybe it does that already... not sure.

oh, and great work on your sharpening rig!! i have been following that thread and love it. thanks for all your great input!
 
There are 3 things you can try:
1) Get a block of wood and a hard felt pad. You can use both after the grit wheel to remove the burr and use the edge as is.
2) Get a 2nd grit wheel and slather on a thicker layer of wax. That should cut down on the grinding speed and leave a finer, but still toothy edge, though you might still have a bit of a burr.
3) Get a leather strop and apply some of the included grit used to coat the wheel and work it into the leather with your fingers. Strop your edge from the grit wheel on the loaded strop. 5 passes per side, then 1-2 per side should remove the burr and leave you with a toothy edge.
 
richard j said:
sharpeningwheels.com is the maker. you can get them at any woodcraft store or order them through grizzly imports. dont buy cheap wheels like i did. they are junk and not worth the little bit of money you might save.
Click to expand...

Thanks richard j, you've been extremely helpful. I gotta get a kit asap. I'm north of the border and it turns out canada knifemaker supply carries both the 8" and 10" kits - sweet! And, they're pretty reasonabley priced as well.
 
@richard j:

Thanks so much for all that information. It took me about 2 hours, but I finally browsed through the 820+3 posts over the 41+1 pages.

A lot of very good information, and a lot of good stories.

But I do have to say: You could save a lot people a ton of time, if you had an "abridged" version of the thread with a pointer to the original thread. It could be something readable in about 10 minutes, and highlight all the major information and stories. Then the much longer thread can be linked for those who want the whole deal. :D

The long thread is great, and it is nice to see so many people give positive comments and stories about paper wheels, but darn it is a long read when one is looking for high-density information. Several of the posts are very good high-density info, but they are interspersed between huge long runs of low-density posts.

KennyB had a similar reaction to browsing all the way through the thread.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ime-is-important-to-you?p=8645443#post8645443

If you want, I can try to cull out the posts I think are most helpful and make a condensed thread with links to the long thread. Please let me know if you think this would be a good idea.

I completely understand, though, that it is way simpler to explain things over a phone call. And I totally appreciate your offer to talk with any of us on the phone! :D

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian

------------------------------------------------------------------


richard j said:
lagrangian, you posted quite a few questionis about the paper wheels. i'm sort of the paper wheel guru on the forums and i hate to type if i can keep from it. if you live in the states or canada i would be glad to give you a call and answer your questions. send me an email with your number and i'll give you a ring. rje196021@gmail.com


some of your questions would be answered if you would read my paper wheel thread (which i started back in 2008 2 days from today).

a lot of your ideas have already been thought of but will not work due to safety reasons and or the impossibility to make it work properly. in the 20 years i have used them, i have thought of just about any idea anyone can come up with.

here is the link to my paper wheel thread.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578787


i looked at your jig you made. i used to use a guided system years ago until a buddy showed me the paper wheels. i'll never go back to a guided system ever again since the wheels can sharpen anything out there, even scissors and sheet metal shears. yesterday i made a post about the guided systems that you might find interesting. its also another reason i'll never go back to a guided system of any kind. they are just not what they are cracked up to be in my opinion. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...use-to-finish-your-edge?p=9929091#post9929091
Click to expand...
 
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@richard j:

After reading over 800 posts in main the thread, I still have one question: Why are some paper-wheels slotted?
Sorry if I missed it, but I don't remember seeing anything on it in the main thread.

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
 
Lagrangian said:
@richard j:

After reading over 800 posts in main the thread, I still have one question: Why are some paper-wheels slotted?
Sorry if I missed it, but I don't remember seeing anything on it in the main thread.

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
Click to expand...

well, if i'm not mistaken, the reason for the slots is posted on the paper wheel maker's website (sharpeningwheels.com) - which is to keep the blade cool. this is also the reason for the wax, although i still find myself having to dip the blade in water sometimes to keep it cool enough. i don't like applying too much wax, i only put more wax on every 10 knives or so because i have found that it seems like if you do it every knife, the wax build up is crazy and it won't grind the metal away efficiently. of course, i am always feeling the blade/edge to make sure the heat build up won't be too much.


noctis,

thanks for the pointers! well, i will say that i tried going directly from the gritted wheel to a plain leather belt on my 2x42 belt sander with no success. for some reason it would not remove the burr! this is weird, i don't understand why it wouldn't. the paper wheel removes the burr fine. hmmm... any ideas?
 
razor-edge-knives said:
well, if i'm not mistaken, the reason for the slots is posted on the paper wheel maker's website (sharpeningwheels.com) - which is to keep the blade cool. this is also the reason for the wax, although i still find myself having to dip the blade in water sometimes to keep it cool enough.
Click to expand...

@razor-edge-knives:

Ah thanks. I've been looking over the pages at http://www.sharpeningwheels.com/products.html
But I don't anywhere on any of the their pages is an explanation of what the slots are for.

The most explanation I see is:

"The included Conditioning Wax (a special formula of fats, oils and waxes) is applied to the grit wheel to lubricate and control heat. The second wheel is slotted and, with the help of the included jewelers rouge, is used to remove burrs and polish the edge."--Razor Sharp Edgemaking System

But this doesn't explain the slots. Could you point to where they explain it?

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
 
huh, i'm not sure... call mike (owner of razor sharp) and he will be able to answer your question. for some reason i remember that being explained to me by someone, although i have no idea who.
 
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