Thoughts on Laws and TiSticks

Joined
Dec 3, 1999
Messages
9
First, let me introduce myself. I'm a midwestern clergyman who is also a second dan in Taekwondo, and the weapons instructor for my traditional school (traditional in that we consider TKD to be a martial art, not a sport).

While state laws vary, let me contribute my thoughts to the discussion of the laws that may regulate the carrying of Blade Rigger Titanium Sticks. I do know something about how the laws work relevant to marital arts weapons or tools, although I am not a lawyer or even an expert.

It seems to me that there is no problem with the Pocket Meteor or the Koppo Stick. First, They probably would not be recognized as weapons at all, or if they were they would fall into the generally lawful "key chain" weapon category such as the Kobuton. Most states are very tolerant of such weapons as they simply are not intimidating enough to be seriously considered offensive weapons ("Give my your wallet or I'll whap you with my Kobuton" isn't much of a threat). While they probably could be used offensively, anything can. Clearly, they are not designed with attack in mind.

The Ban Bog sticks are a bit more problematic, but might still fall into the key chain weapon category. However, I believe that the Wang Stick and the Wang Bo stick would be very difficult to explain away. I suspect they would violate the general prohibition against "black jacks and billies" that most states have on the books.

As someone else said in this forum, if you are caught carrying a martial art tool you better have a reason for carrying it, and the reason cannot be self-defense. If you are a legitimate martial artist (who belongs to a federation, is a student or instructor at a school, and who holds some rank) I think that a very reasonable argument can be made for carrying at least some of the Blade Rigger Titanium Sticks. It is a point of common law that the peaceful practice of a martial art is not a crime. Therefore, it seems to me that a legitimate martial artist could carry a TiStick on his or her person to permit frequent range-of-motion exercises to be done in the course of day to keep joints flexible. As one gets older (and I am almost 50), such daily exercise is essential to keep arthritis at bay. I doubt the law can tell me that I cannot have on a my person a tool that permits me to do the exercises essential to the continued peaceful practice of my art.

I've looked at the Blade Rigger Titanium Sticks for some time, and after reading the traffic in this forum, decided to order a Pocket Meteor and an 8" Ban Bog. They arrived here yesterday, and I've had fun trying them out. The Ban Bog is a traditional Korean weapon and my students are going to enjoy playing with this one. The Pocket Meteor does look useful as a self-defense tool and is certainly convenient to carry. This was important.

I typically go through my day in dress slacks, and as I sit for long periods, I do not want anything in either of my back pockets (it throws the spine off and I find it causes backaches). After some experimentation, I find that it works best for me if I drop the PM in my front trouser pocket and run the cord up to a small flat "s" shaped steel clip (originally sold to hold a key ring) on my belt. One part of the "s" shaped clip goes over my belt and the other loosely clips the cord of the PM. Snagging the cord with a thumb and pulling it can quickly draw the PM. This move pops the cord out of the belt clip and pulls the PM out of the pocket. A flick of the wrist wraps the PM around my hand to the Ready Position. When I am standing the PM is actually dangling from its cord inside my front pocket, with its full weight being supported by my belt. It cannot be seen and is very comfortable to wear.

I am very pleased to have these tools and especially pleased at their quality. I hope some of you will find my comments useful.

Scot Giles


 
Scot,

Welcome! And I am happy to see that you are pleased with the Ti-Sticks.

I wanted to be concise about this, but for some reason, I cannot cut & paste! So I have to do this the tedious way...copy by typing!

Plain words, I think the laws stink, they make no sense...and there are troubling things you write about as well...

"...if you are caught carrying a martial art tool you better have a reason for carrying it, and the reason cannot be self-defense. If you are a legitimate martial artist (who belongs to a federation, is a student or instructor at a school, and who holds some rank) I think that a very reasonable argument can be made for carrying at least some of the Blade Rigger Titanium Sticks."

#1 ...and the reason cannot be self-defense.
#2 ...legitimate martial artist...belonging to a federation, student or instructor at a school who holds some rank.

Indeed, self-defense is illegal now, is it not? I mean, that is the way they treat it. By that I mean, they pay it lip service and they say you have a Right to self-preservation, then they deny you the weapons that would make it a success.

Only a member of a martial arts federation, instructor or student, someone "legitimate," may carry a weapon for self-defense?

Let's go back and link this together...

"It is a point of common law that the peaceful practice of a martial art is not a crime." But carrying a weapon to defend yourself is a crime?

See where I am coming from Scot?

Two further points;

#1 Very few police officers are going to let you slide once they have decided that you are carrying a prohibited weapon, on the grounds you use it to exercise with. They will tell you, "The Judge can decide that..." Meanwhile your legal bills will mount!

#2 A Kubotan is a very illegal item in Courthouses where I live, if you are lucky, they will send you back out to the car and tell you to leave it there...if you are unlucky or run into someone who simply hates your right to self-defense, they will lock you up on the spot for trying to get in with it. I have also heard the FAA has regulations prohibiting Kubotans on commercial aircraft.

Just a few thoughts...I wanted to write this in a way to enlighten everyone...in a different way. I did not write this to flame you or anything...to highlight something I have said countless times on these Forums...

When they make everything illegal to carry, to defend yourself with, then the floodgates open and people lose respect for the very law they live under.

 
Hi Don,

Thanks for the welcome. This forum looks like fun and I'll enjoy participating.

First, please don't read my comments as expressing approval for the current state of the laws. In fact, I think most of them are misguided. For example, as part of our "anti-gang" laws in Illinois we consider a citizen to be "armed" if he or she is carrying a knife with a blade length of "at least three inches." Apparently, we are supposed to believe that the drug dealers walking around with their TECH-9s are going to say "Oh my, I guess I better stop carrying my pocket knife then." Such laws are silly at best, and at worst are attempts by politicians to pretend to address social issues by making symbolic gestures.

Anyhow, in fact key chain weapons get a pass in most states. Sure, there are some areas (like courthouses) where you can't bring in anything, but in general a kobuton (and etc.) isn't going to get you in trouble. Last time I had to testify in court the guard cheerfully offered to check my Swiss Army knife and kobuton, and returned both to me when I was done.

I keep track of the laws for two reasons: my students want to know and I cannot afford to run afoul of the laws. I'm a clergyman, and if I break the law I can lose my livelihood, so I'm careful. I suspect there are others with different occupations that are in the same position.

I didn't mean to imply that I think a person has to be a martial artist to carry a PM, etc. Rather I was just pointing out that if one is a martial artist with a background that the court will recognize, you have an explanation that someone else might not have. For example, if someone tried to explain away the carrying of a TiStick saying that it was for MA practice, and the court established that the person has never seen the inside of a Dojo or Dojang, the judge is unlikely to be impressed. On the other hand, if the martial art background is clear, the defense makes more sense.

You are right in that an arresting officer is probably going to say "I'll leave that up to the judge," but then, that is what officers are supposed to do. Sure, they exercise some discretion, but when push comes to shove it's up to the judge not the police officer, and that's the way it should be.

Unfortunately, carrying a weapon solely for the purpose of defending yourself against a crime is itself a crime in a lot of states (and again, I'm not saying that I agree or that this is a good thing). From the experience I've had it appears that the courts simply do not expect citizens to need to defend themselves, at least not with a weapon. You'll be told, "that's what we have police for," or "give the attacker what they want and try to get a good description to give to the police afterward."

Of course you do have a right to defend yourself, but it is also that case that you can get in trouble for trying to exercise that right. As we all make our decisions about this it seems to me that we might as well make them realistically. I guy I know whose wife was once raped and so now packs a pistol (illegal in Illinois as there are no civilian carry permits), once said he'd rather hire a lawyer to get his wife a suspended sentence than have to hire an undertaker to bury her. I can understand that. What he's doing is engaging in an act of civil disobedience--refusing to follow a law he believes is unjust, and willing to face the consequences. I've no problem with someone who makes a decision like that. A lot of very important people in my book have been civilly disobedient (Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Jesus, etc.).

In all events, I think this forum is going to be fun.

Scot

 
Guys,

Just a couple of thoughts...

I personally know a lot of guys who carry a steel pipe, tire iron, cut off baseball bat, etc. under the front seat of their cars for 'protection'. One of them was just stopped by the police several weeks ago, and during a search of his car, a steel pipe, with one end covered in duct tape for a better grip, was found under his front seat. The officer asked my friend what the pipe was for, and my friend replied that since he lived in such a bad neighborhood, he carried the pipe in his car for PROTECTION. The officer looked at the address on my friend's DL, and told him that he'd need a LOT more than that pipe for protection, and then let him go, and let him KEEP the pipe! I guess sometimes plain ol' honesty is the best policy...
smile.gif


Scot, I understand your need to be legal, to keep your job and all. It's a shame that, with today's laws, one has to be more concerned with inane regulations rather than the protection of one's self and family. Like you said, civil disobedience. Are we really being disobedient though? Compared to other citizens? I don't carry a firearm, because, as you noted, in Illinois there are no CCW permits, although, if there were, I would carry one. I work the graveyard shift, and roaming around Chicago during the wee hours of the night without being armed is, IMHO, dangerous. So I carry what I can/should. I don't want no tire iron under my seat, but I'll surely carry my Wang Bo, in it's TiStick Sleeve, rigged so it hangs behind my shoulder on the seat belt strap, ready for instant deployment. Of course I'll have various other tools on me...
if I get busted, well then, so be it. I have no record, and never had any problems with the police. Silly as it may seem, I'm willing to take a chance with the law. I'd rather take a chance with our legal system than be 'unarmed' and have to fight three guys who want to kick my ass into tomorrow.

BTW, I like the idea of hanging the PM off of the hook on your belt. I usually just shove my PM down the front of my pants, or leave it in my back pocket. Aren't those PM's the sweetest??
 
I know this is really an off-topic question, but I've always wondered, what kind of a gun is a TECH-9. I'd be happy if anybody cared to fill me in here. Thanks.

Jani

------------------
Two important questions in life:
Do they have a catalog?
Did you know there's a town called "Batman" in Turkey?
 
"Tec-9" stands for, Intratec 9mm, there is a .22 long rifle version as well (The Tec-22). The forerunner of this weapon was called the Cobray I believe, and there may have been one other variant.

It (all mentioned) is simply magazine fed, blowback operated semi-automatic weapon. Nothing special about them at all, technology has been around for 100+ years from infancy to the current state.

The Tec-9 is fed by a 36 round magazine, it is not the most accurate arm one could use, but could do in a pinch. What they lack in accuracy they make up for in utter reliability. In close quarters, this arm would be about as good as any other...but for distance shooting with a 9mm, you would be better off with a Glock, SigSauer, etc....

Good enough overview? Ha ha ha ha

My wife is from Illinois.

Politicians? They are either altruistic or Draconian. Depends.

The focus of gun control has overshadowed a very important fact.

They don't care about guns, what they are trying to eliminate is your right to defend yourself.

The proof of this is in their other restrictions. They try to ban anything that is useful for defense...in some areas, you cannot possess O.C. Pepper Spray...go figure.



[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 06 December 1999).]
 
Thanks for the info, Don. I have seen mentions of Tec-9's and drug dealers before and I was curious about why is it so. Does it look "bad" or something?

Speaking of making self-defense illegal, it's practically that way here in Finland. It's already full gun registeration, it's hard to get a firearm if you're not a hunter, belong to a shooting club or something like that. If you apply for a purchase permit, there's no way you're going to get it if you say you want it for self-defense. And if someone tries to mug you and you cut him with a knife, the person can go to the police without fear since someone who has cut another person with a knife isn't going to have a fun day in the court. Although the Finnish constitution doesn't say anything about keeping and bearing arms, it says that everybody is entitled to his/her personal inviolability and honor, but I bet they would laugh at you in the court if you said you harmed your attacker to protect your personal inviolability.

Jani

------------------
Two important questions in life:
Do they have a catalog?
Did you know there's a town called "Batman" in Turkey?

[This message has been edited by Jani Kemppainen (edited 07 December 1999).]
 
CSGiles,

Unfortunately, basically all JSP items except for the Bandando are illegal in NYC and in many other large cities they can be found to be illegal. Although the exact wording of the penal law does not necessarily include each and every item the words are vague enough "bludgeon, billy, blackjack," that a lot of items can be made out to be weapons.

Weapons possession is usually coupled with intent. A pencil is a weapon if you use it to kill someone but if you just have it, it isn't a weapon. If you carry any Ti sticks, in NYC, this is regarded as weapons possession and you will also be slapped with intent in the final charge.

It is very difficult to explain JSP Ti sticks. I had a PM and my boss immediately knew what it was for, hitting someone. Forget the wang bo, koppo or ban bog sticks. Although the adonizing can make them look like a child's toys, the very fact that you have such an expensive well crafted item can be very suspicious. Anything that you make or modify yourself or anything you by that is crafted to be very effective as a weapon can get you in trouble.

I agree with Don on the paradox that everyone has the right to life and it is a person's own responsibility to defend one's life but we are not given the means to do so.

In fact we are stripped of our right to defend ourselves.

That is why JSP stuff is concealable. In a lot of places, if you have that kind of equipment you will get in trouble if you are caught. I always advise people to make sure that their concealed weapons are concealed because I always end up spotting them on people and the cop only needs a slight suspicion. Really make an effort not to play with it or show it or be aware when you take off a sweater or a jacket. In our minds we may be justified, but it will be very difficult to explain you weapons carry to others.

Jason
 
Jani,

We welcome immigrants here! There are plenty of People in America I would trade for someone who thinks like you do.
 
Hi Fenris,

Right you are--the laws certainly seem a contradiction, and I suspect that most people who carry concealed weapons for self-defense are, in fact, engaging in an act of civil disobedience. That may just be the way it is in our society where so many powerful agencies and groups find it easier to go around the Constitution than to follow it.

I also agree with your observation that if one is going to be civilly disobedient and carry a self-defense weapon that may not be entirely legal, one shouldn't also be stupid and flash it around. I had a student in my traditional weapons class who did that with a nauchuku and promptly--and deservedly--got busted. He was standing in a parking lot with some friends and began to do kata and mock combat to impress them. He impressed the officer in a passing patrol car too. The place for training is in the gym or dojo, not the street. I've always believed that outside the training hall, a self-defense weapon should stay out of sight until the second it is used for actual self-defense.

Anyhow, for those who carry the PM, let me suggest you give the idea of hanging it inside a pocket from its cord via a simple belt clip. For those who wear dress trousers this keeps the tool in one place and it doesn't paint. I got my clip for $2 at the local hardware store (it's for a keyring). The only problem is that it is shiny steel. It would be nice to get a lower profile version (black or leather covered). Maybe Blade Rigger will consider the idea.

 
Some of the fascist governments that ban martial arts weapons such as nunchukas and balisongs allow an exception for martial artists but only while traveling directly to and from training or demonstrations. They tend to interpret "directly to and from" extremely narrowly; if you stop at a store on the way to pick up some Gatorade that could be ruled not traveling directly (no, I'm not kidding).

If anybody's interested, there are illustrated plans on the web to build several Cobray models, including full-auto. Any handyman who has a drill and likes do-it-yourself projects can build a machine pistol. I seem to have misplaced the url, but a web search should turn it up.

Drug dealers in movies favor machine pistols....

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Don't need Select Fire capability, my finger is fast enough!

Arms control is a very old pasttime for the tyrannical.
 
Just a further thought, something encased by my soul that I just discovered while reading.

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."~~Tacitus
 
I had to go to the JSP site to find out what the heck you guys are talking about. Ban Bog, Indeed! It looks like Mr. Piorek took all of our self defense dreams and turned them into titanium and steel.

I consider myself a Libertarian LEO. I know that some consider that an oxymoron, but what better way to influence things than from the inside? You guys are all right on target about most LEO's jumping to the conclusion that anything they don't understand or recognize, that is shiny or heavy, is probably a weapon and they'll let the judge decide.

On more that one occasion I have given warnings and let someone move on in a situation where other officers would have been all over them on a weapons charge. Now that I have made sergeant I can influence some of the wild young bucks to be a little more understanding.

The bottom line is always that your concealed self defense tool, whatever it may be, has to be CONCEALED! This means don't flash it, show it off, let if fall out of your coat, etc. Don't do things that will get you arrested or searched and assume any place with a metal detector doesn't want you to carry anything. If you've just used it save your life, being alive is worth the grief the uninformed will give you about your 'deadly weapon'.

As an FMA instructor I have to say the great thing about the short impact type weapons that JSP has done in titanium was that you could make one out of any stick or hard item of the proper shape and length and toss it if you needed to. Making it an obvious weapon that cost a lot of money seems to contradict it's use and purpose.
 
Your words do not fall on deaf or unfriendly ears. I have taken tons of heat and hateful mail for things I have posted in the past, not here, but elsewhere. That is O.K. too. The impression was that I was anti-LEO. Flatly not true. Skeptical and critical, oh yeah...I learned that from good LEO's too!

Welcome!
 
PROTECTOR,

You're right! That's why I love JSP's stuff so much, because you can carry them concealed!!!! Of course, you can carry any tool concealed, but JSP's is also comfortable, and quick to deploy.

Never show off your weapons!
I never understood guys who did that. "Hey lookit my new Death Dealer knife I bought from the Home Shopping Network!! It came with fifty free ninja stars!"
rolleyes.gif
 
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