Thoughts On The Newer Super Steels

Mistwalker

Mistwalker

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It's always odd where and when ideas may pass through my mind, this most recent one occurred during one of several dental surgeries, where stainless steel tools are the norm, and I have spent the last nearly two decades designing tools and that tends to be my happy place that I escape to when I am in pain.

The thought boiled down to this question. If the main deterrent for using steels like CPM S35VN is that it is so hard and so tough that it doesn't lend itself to creating on a slack belt the shallow convex blade cross section that so many of us here have come to know and love dearly. And then the scandi grind tends to have such a fragile edge that most of us here who work more with harder woods than poplar and pine do not really care for in softer steels....how would it go if, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater and abandon the whole idea, these two thoughts were combined into some thinner blades? Since many people her like thin blades so much for whatever reason(s), would it be possible to make some of the smaller models like the F2 and Handyman, and Esquire sized knives in thin CPM S35VN or some other super steel(s) with a scandi or modified scandi grind for those of us who love or live near salt water, since the scandi jig is back in action? It seems to me it would make the steel easier to work with in this manner and also make the edge of the scandi grind tougher using a tougher steel, and seems like it would be a win win, but since I am a designer and not a maker, I may not be seeing the bad aspects, so I thought I would just ask...
 
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Not sure which steels you’re comparing.
S35VN is a little tougher than CPM154, the other SS used by FF (and leaving aside AEBL). A2 is tougher than either of those by a good measure.
In terms of wear resistance - which affects grinding etc. - the sequence would be: S35VN > CPM154 > A2

Generally speaking, of course. HT and other factors can make a difference
 
Oyster said:
Not sure which steels you’re comparing.
S35VN is a little tougher than CPM154, the other SS used by FF (and leaving aside AEBL). A2 is tougher than either of those by a good measure.
In terms of wear resistance - which affects grinding etc. - the sequence would be: S35VN > CPM154 > A2

Generally speaking, of course. HT and other factors can make a difference
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I haven't taken the time to read what is said on paper, I've just gone by personal experiences with different tools in the field. I have knives made of A2 by various makers and I knives made of Cryo-quenched CPM S35VN heat treated and quenched different places, and in my general uses that has not been my experience. But I also haven't had any really thin CPM S35VN blades so far, 1/8 has been the thinnest, but it was in my experiences tougher than the 1/8 A2 edges I have used. Hence this question to create some discussion. And the CPM s35vn has had much better corrosion resistance so far. But I was also wondering about some of the newer steels that are even harder than the S35
 
Edge holding may be better with the CPM stainless steels that Fiddleback uses, but A2 will probably be tougher. In my experience A2 holds it's edge longer then O-1. CPM-S35VN in my Pro-Kephart has been working great. Touch-ups on my leather strop with white compound are quick and edge holding has been really good. The trick to CPM steels is to touch them up before they get dull. Once they get dull, they are a beast to sharpen. Strop between uses and you won't need to take them to the stones or grinder to get the edge back. Learned that trick on BG-42 years ago. Love that steel!
 
My sharpening set-up consists of a an old Norton India stone, a Spyderco medium grit ceramic stone, and a Spyderco Sharpmaker. If I can't sharpen whatever steel with that I'll take a pass.

So far the fanciest steels I've used have been M390 and ZDP-189. The ZDP-189 was an absolute bitch after I let it get dull. The M390 so far has not been bad. I bought an early Worksharp sharpener, but I'm not a fan. A minor goof on a Case knife gave it a recurved blade.
 
Halfneck said:
My sharpening set-up consists of a an old Norton India stone, a Spyderco medium grit ceramic stone, and a Spyderco Sharpmaker. If I can't sharpen whatever steel with that I'll take a pass.

So far the fanciest steels I've used have been M390 and ZDP-189. The ZDP-189 was an absolute bitch after I let it get dull. The M390 so far has not been bad. I bought an early Worksharp sharpener, but I'm not a fan. A minor goof on a Case knife gave it a recurved blade.
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Yeah it was steels like M390, CPM M4, Elmax, CPM 20CV, CPM 110V I was wondering about. Just thinking about something that would have very good abrasion resistance and very good corrosion resistance, mated with as hydrophobic a handle material as possible. So with the handle epoxied on, in theory, the salt water should have less of an impact on the knife's tang than it had on Bob's mid tech in the keys, and only be a real issue with the exposed parts of the steel that could be more easily cleaned and maintained. Something for long term fishing trips in the gulf or in the Keys where I grew up. I miss that place.

Bmurray said:
I have used the he'll out of my fairly thin s35vn pro-kephart. I even bent the edge while batoning and hammered it back with a hammer and without failure. It and cpm154 are my favorite tough steels.
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Yes, but then you could break an anvil with a rubber mallet, so what you say has t be taken with a grain of salt :P
 
I don't want to cross any lines. I will just say that I have been very happy with Elmax run at 60-61 HRC with a thin cross section for bushcraft tasks. Looking forward to trying M390 and CPM 4V. I have also tried Cru-wear and 20CV in Spyderco's military and paramilitary line which are ground very thin and they have held up well.

Fiddleback does a great job with their knives and designs and I believe these steels would serve them well. If they choose to take the jump into this realm however I don't know if I would understand the move to CPM S35VN with the other steels currently on the market.
 
If corrosion resistance is important, then CPM M4, CPM 4V and Cru-wear wouldn’t be on my list.

For a smaller, thinner blade, say, for fishing, where corrosion resistance and edge rentention were most important, I would probably lean towards a US equivalent (cheaper to source) of M390 (CPM 20CV or CTS 204P). In a larger blade where my uses might require more toughness, S35VN.
Elmax is a great steel afaik, but, like M390, also comes at a premium for being from Europe. I’m not sure it provides any advantages that justify the higher cost.

Steels like S110V that can get super hard and have incredible edge retention could also be an option for a thin “fishing knife”. It will be much harder to sharpen when the time comes, however. Not sure I need that level of wear resistance at the cost of toughness. To me, 20CV is a very nicely balanced steel where edge retention and corrosion resistance are the primary factors.

Of course, this is just my opinion :D
 
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I’m happy with some of the super steels. I’ve got a .074 thick scandi in Cruwear that’s been a gem and a 3/32 scandivex in 3v that’s a mean carver. Anymore, I’m more open to thinner stock. The new steels make it easy.
 
I think the super steels are great, but when you figure in price and ease of maintenance, not sure it's worth the extra $ when the performance on common tasks won't really exceed more common steels.

For example, I have most of the Spyderco Mules and PM2 Sprints, yet use none of them for EDC, with the exception of S110V Blurple. When it eventually got dull (and it took forever), with my occasional touchups, it was an incredible pain to resharpen properly and went into the drawer promptly after.

My current EDC's are S35VN CRK Inkosi, FF Pro-Runt S35VN, with a Traditional Beerscout in slip in carbon steel.

When I go camping, it's a FF A2 or FF Pro S35VN with the beerscout, while the Inkosi stays home.

In the kitchen, its a Northern Knives 2nds S35VN Chef & Paring along with a SamuraiStewart O7 Paring Knives (aka the light sabers).

For Steaks Boker Arbolito 440C for the guests, CPM154 His/Hers JK Workers.
 
I love well done CPM S35VN. I have it in folding knives, hunting knives, survival knives that I use for my experiments and for teaching wilderness survival skills, bushcraft knives, and in more tactical style knives. I have it in stock removal form and one that was hand forged by a friend who just had to do a few to prove he could because he is a precision junkie. I only have experience with it down to about 1/8 inch thickness, but I'm perfectly happy with that when it has been heat treated and cryo-quenched properly. Some people seem to like some of the newer steels better for corrosion resistance, but so far I have never had any issues with the knives I have that have satin finishes and near mirror polished flats. So far, as far as edge retention goes, corrosion resistance, and durability in hard use goes, CPM S35VN heat treated and quenched properly and finished nicely has suited every purpose I have used it for in every environment I have used it in, from the Gulf coast to the Michigan deep freeze of 2013-14, and I would love an F2 in 1/8 CPM S35VN, but 1/8 seems to be too thick for that around here, and so far the AEB-L makes for really boring looking knives. So I was just looking to get other people's opinions on other steels.
 
AEB-L may look boring, but it sure works. My Gaucho has been used a bunch in the kitchen and still cuts great. Isn't quite as sharp as when I got it, but its still dang sharp. Bet S35VN would be the same in the kitchen, just at a higher price point.
 
Actually S35VN probably holds its edge longer the AEB-L.

BTW, I like 154CM and Bucks 440C too. Its more about the heat treat for me. Am easily pleased.
 
I might be wrong but I think the biggest draw back for makers like Andy using the high wear CPM steels is how fast they wear out belts and other equipment.
 
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