Thoughts on VERY small knives for defense

J

justin

Joined
Sep 17, 1999
Messages
217
Hi all.
I have been wondering if there are those of you out there who practice with the very small of the tactical folders. (although you folks from california might have a differenct take on the word small!) I have been specifically wondering about some of the smaller folders Spyderco makes. The navigator and Cricket and so forth. Are there sources availabel that are different and specific to small knife use? Do any of you wnat to share your findings on using such tools for sel-defense. I am aware that they are by nature of their size inferior and that they are folders and there-fore harder and slower to deploy than a fixed. I am just curious if any of you have found that they have merit for specific instances and situations. I see kuntao/silat Guro Steve Gartin doing some things with soem very small Spydercos on their website for Malabar and Kuntao/Silat. Any thoughts from anyone else? Look forward to reading the posts. Thanks.

justin.
 
Gartin's other tape, "Heartless Monkey Knife," contains an interesting lecture by an EMT who attended their seminar. He indicated a small knife can be very effective but you have to choose your targets carefully and you have to practice a great deal.

The EMT indicated that anywhere you can feel a pulse, the artery is roughly 1/4" below the skin surface.

The tape's available at www.kuntaosilat.com & has some interesting info on it although some of Gartin's stuff is a little flowery for me. Also, Gartin's preferred manner of closing a lockback knife scares the hell out of me. He's got good taste in knives, though--so does Chas Clements, who's also on the tape. The stuff with Chas is worth the price of the tape alone ($50, not $40 as some of the site's pages claim).

Hope this helps.
 
disregard

[This message has been edited by Smoke (edited 04-10-2001).]
 
Funny you should mention heartless monkey knife. I just printed it off and read it minutes before posting here. I like the idea of a small blade versus the large one even though it's a disadvantage I have never been all that comfortable with larger blades. Smaller has always felt better. Which is convenient considering the laws in NYC. I recently gave my Teacher in Poekoelan Tjiminde Tulen a Navigator of the solid alimite handle in thanks for bringing me to an especially life changing seminar on the system. He loved it and said it was perfect. Seeing that I decided to look into the topic for myself. I also have the worden tape you mentioned...very nice stuff. Though because of my study in a Kuntao Silat blend (aforementioned) Gartin's video is my favorite of the collection I have. I think I will get a copy of the video of Heartless Monkey knife. Speaking of his taste in knives has anybody been able to identify the two small fixed blades that gartin is wearing at his waist during most of his Knife Secrets of Silat and Kuntao video? I really like the shape judging by what I have seen of them. Thanks for the responses. I have been giving thought to buying another Lagriffe. i own Steve Perrin's street bowie it's my favorite of my knives even though I own more expensive "slicker" looking models. He makes some great stuff. I liked the way Gartin was able to conceal the little Cricket so completely that it almost seemed to materialize in his hand. The felt before it was seen principle. Also I hate attracting attention so in some situations a smaller blade could be an advantage over a larger one. These are just my more complete thoughts on this. Thanks for the input. I think I am going to pick a feew more smaller blades. Right now my carry knives are an Endura left-side and a wegner strong side. It's been working. Summer is approaching though and with it the lessened ability for conceament and comfort. Once agian thanks and please more people post.
 
Justin:

The two knives Gartin uses are known as "Citizen Solids," which he goes into detail on in "Heartless Monkey Knife," although I e-mailed the maker he identified & never heard anything back.

I'm not much for Gartin's stuff, as I said, but he does have good taste in knives--he works with a Tuffram serrated Police for much of the video, at one point uses a fancied-up SS Police, and at one point I saw an old aluminum Civilian peeking from his waistband.

Chas, for his part, identified the makers of his knives after I e-mailed him, although he didn't provide contact info. To say the least, his credentials are impressive (& I'm not talking IMA ranking)!

BTW, "Heartless Monkey Knife 2" & the "Keepsafe/Pocket Pal" vids are on hold as he's looking to find another cameraman to work with.
 
Gartin's tapes inspired my search for and purchase of a pair of these which I carry in Mike Sastra Draw Point sheaths:

View
 
I have tried to contact Steve Gartin through email and the email was returned to me because of the unknown address. Does anyone have a number where I can purchase a copy of Heartless monkey knife? Also Steve Harvey are those Lynn Griffith pieces? Very nice. Are those as close to the knives in Guru Gartin's video as you could find? Or are those it exactly? Thanks guys great input.
 
I can't see the picture Steve Harvey posted. Am I the only one?

Leo

------------------
"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."
 
Well, I CAN see it now... Odd...

Leo

BTW, nice knife.

------------------
"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."
 
The knife is the Draco, made by Lynn Dawson.

It is not the exact knife used by Steve in the video, just a close approximation. I may have misunderstood and gotten a little off topic. These knives have 5" blades, and are close to the knives Steve used in the Secrets of Silat tape.



[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 03-28-2001).]
 
Steve: Thanks for the reply. I think Gartin's piece in HMK was about a 3-3.5" flat ground blade with a fully grooved (4) grip. The wood was kind of clunky but befitting a utility tool--yours outshines it in class.

For me, Gartin's piece would work better, especially since yours looks to have Micarta scales--Micarta, regardless of grade or finish, is always too slippery.
 
Well I got an email from somebody concerning this and was given a URL to the site that makes Gartin's knives: www.keenedgeknives.com
They are students of the DeThuaors lineage and made the knives as a gift. Originally in Damascus. The knives on the site are a good price and have trainer versions. I am going to order a set. Man for that price I may order two sets a left and a right side. Nice stuff. Thanks for the URL for the video I actually got in touch with Chas Clements earlier and will order it through him. He gave me the same URL.
 
Its always disturbing to me that most of these tapes are made by so call experts. The truth is that no one has the ultimate style anyone who claims they do is a fool. If you must use a small knife for self defense folder "anything with a 3 inch blade" I would skip most of the so call experts, and get myself on some real kali balisong fighters or krav maga. The reason is that everyone has these concepts of the right thing to do etc... But, they don't realize that it looks good on tape and does give you the basic, but a lot of times they guys wouldn't last a minute in a real fight with someone who knows what they are doing. A lot of the times these guys have never been there done that.

As for me, I'm no expert in knife fighting. I've been doing it a few years while I was in south east asia. I think it takes years and years of practice before it becomes second nature to you. I've been in a few knife fights and I can tell you that the techniques that these so called experts teach wouldn't have worked and would have gotten me killed. If you look at these tapes its in slow mo and the guys don't really fake dodge or anything like that in a real fight. I can tell you that I've learned from a guy who is supposedly one of the best fighters in his country he been in over a 300 fights or so fights and has lived to tell about it. His body is not a pretty thing its filled with scars as a result of all the wounds. The reality is that even if your good if the other guy has a blade he still dangerous. I wouldn't buy any video or take any lessons from anyone who doesn't tell you how to take a cut,or tell you to build your forearm strength and improve your reflexes. You can have the technique right but if your slow and weak you will die or get really hurt. You have to be willing take a cut on the arm in order to gain the advantage. Its a fact in life.

If your wondering what I carry? I carry a sypderco civilian. I have found that its probably the best folder for me as far as self defense goes. I'm ableto slash muscle like butter and cut the person up pretty bad. With a small blade your goal is not really to puncture in my view, its more to slash veins etc..to weaken the other guy before you go in for the kill. I wouldn't think of trying to gut someone as the first move its just too dangerous with a small knife.
 
My question was not directed to be a query on how to defend yourself with a small blade all the time. It was a quesion to what people out there practice and what methods they are comfortable with if forced to use a small knife. The Civilian is a great knife. Really scary looking. But you can't carry that it NYC where I am from. You never know when you might get into trouble and even if i get into a fight carrying a civilian and never pull it when or if the cops find me I'm completely screwed. It doesn't matter to them at that point. Thanks for the point of view it was helpfull in seeing another way of looking at the situation. I can see your point about how some of these people have never been in a knife fight. They might not have but they do teach methods that have been tested at some point or they would not have survived all these decades. I am just beginner and so i really don't know **** from shynola but I have to start somewhere and for me it's wherever I can get my hands on ANY information at all. There is precious little as it is for the learning and fewer teachers nearby to learn it from.
 
I see you live in NY, since their knife laws are pretty tight if I'm not mistaken. Its been quite a few years since I was living in NY, but I believe you can still carry the Matriach which it the little brother of the civilian in NY. i wouldn't carry a straight blade if I were you, the reason behind that is because if you were force to actually defend yourself you will find it a bit of a challenge during the winter months in NY where people are often dress in heavy clothing. The curve blade of the civilian and the harper is meant for that sort of fighting. To answer your questions about how these styles have lasted on for decades. The reality is most of the blade fighting techniques have been deprived from short swords or saber like blades 11 inches and up. For short blades and folders I would have to go with the technique use by balisong practioner. I find that its most effective in both defense and offense. But the one thing that I like about this style is the fact that it gives you real world situation where people aren't running and over extending themselves at you. If you watch training films the other guy always over extends his body in some way making it easy to do that quick kill move that everyone likes. But, the question that has always been on my mind is what happens when the guy isn't going to lunge at you etc... You may also want to pick up a good knife and use it in your everday use if possible. You can be one very deadly guy, without any formal training, just by knowing how your knife cuts and using it all the time till it becomes an extension of your body. Just take a look at the people from Napel they use the kirku "thats probably spelled wrong" but you will find out that they are considered one of the most deadly fighters in the world with a blade, even though there are no formal training. Its because they use the blade as a tool in their everyday life.
 
That's pretty good advice. Actually I carry a wegner strong side and an Endura lightweight on my weak side. The serrations on the endura are good for getting through all kinds of things. I have found that the Wegner makes a pretty good thruster in the tests I have done at home while the Endura lacks tip strength something i have heard frequently happens with the Civilian. Also just from looking at the blade of the civilian i can't see thrusting proving very easy to do if at all with that inwardly curving blade. If ti's all the same to you though I think I will be going to get some training anyway. Thanks for the advice.
 
You know, after reading this, I didn't hear anything about small push knives. I recently gotten a CS Safekeeper 3, and a mini pal.

Both are small enough to palm before being brought into use.
 
The only thing about push knives that I don;t like is that they are weapons and will be treated as such by athorities. They don't really have a utility purpose. At least they aren't intended to. Not that I have ever seen. I gues nobody mentioned them either for that reason or because I originally mentioned folders like the Cricket and the Navigator. I do like the small Peacekeeper that coldsteel makes. Also Running dog knives makes a nice on too with only one edge for us folks in states which frown upon the double edge. The largest of the Push daggers from Cold Steel looks like it would make a really uncomfortable slasher though. It's probably not designed for that is it?
 
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