Throwing Flying Steel knives Fedin style

E

edojan

Joined
Mar 8, 2014
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hi guys, here is my video on throwing multiple Flying Steel knives no-spin Fedin style. Still learning the technique (and loving it) and also working on my accuracy. One of these days I hope to get some time and create a video on the end grain target you see in the video (it was a real pain in the caster to build but its definitely worth it)

[video=youtube;fOnggiWBQ0E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOnggiWBQ0E[/video]
 
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The first knife - from 3 meters (10 ft) , the last couple of knives -from about 6 meters (19 ft). Don't have any more room to go any further (space is a limiter)
 
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Very nice indeed!

Can someone compare and contrast this 'Fedin' style with the more familiar 1/4 turn 'Thorn' style. Is there a difference?

-Phil
 
I'm no expert, but I'll try to summarize how it works for me:

Definitely a difference.

I've tried both styles and basically use "Thorn" whenever possible but seem to naturally move toward "Russian" when I get tired or if there is limited space. I see three main differences in the technique personally. 1. Where (and how far) the knife starts out behind the body, 2. How far the arm is extended as the knife is brought forward, 3. The release difference which requires a sort of whip snapping motion (part of the forward propulsion) at the release for "Russian" while "Thorn" release is a more natural use of the light grip, breaking wrist, and guiding finger to just direct the handle as it naturally comes out of the hand due to the leverage of the arm.

"Thorn" is basically spear throwing so you need to get the knife behind your back (look at a picture or video of a track and field javelin thrower) low like a baseball pitcher warm up and bring it forward with as much exaggerated extended arm as possible. The more I exaggerate the body motion, the better, further and harder I seem to throw. Sometimes the effort even throws me off balance a bit or leaves me hopping on one foot for a second. As Ralph mentions in his book, this takes a good bit of athleticism. Three dozen of these throws at 20 feet or better will start to wear me out. So I get tired and naturally start cheating by changing techniques after a while. "Thorn" also takes a fair amount of space to do well. But results in the long hard throws that are very satisfying to me. I try to have my arm at almost full extension whenever possible. Overhand, your arm sort of looks like a windmill vane drawing a smooth arc from back near your butt to the release point near your eye level. When I get tired, I move closer. Sometime I just do modified "Thorn" throws with less arm but still with as much exaggerated arm as possible. And then, like in the video above, out to 12 or sometimes 16 feet, the "Russian" style seems to work well. It takes much less arm and as you can see in edojan's video, the knife can be thrown from above shoulder level, just behind the head with the arm bent at the elbow often at almost 45 degrees. I tend to just snap down on the knife, release it in the right place (a practice thing you can't explain) and keep my forefinger hard to snap along the knife tang on release. Since the elbow is so bent, you are propelling the knife forward with half of the leverage available if the arm is at nearly full extension. For me this substantially decreases my range. But one situation I created to practice in has a building on my left and a tree and shrubs on the right, with a low target ahead and I have to throw around two obstacles, down the narrow path to hit it. "Thorn" style just won't work there because there is hardly any space left, right or behind (similar to being in a closet and having to throw out when someone opens the door and discovers you) If your arm is cocked when that door flies open "Russian" will work. I have a buddy who throws Russian all the time and relies on much heavier muscle that I have to get distant hits with the shoulder and arm still bent. But for me, those long satisfying throws have to come from "Thorn" style and I use it much closer with all my underhand and side arm throws as well. The arcs that your arm describes seem more natural to me and I am much more accurate hitting smaller targets this way. I also find that at 16 feet or more almost all my "Thorn" throws hit very nicely point first since they are always traveling the big arc. The "Russian" throws take more release control (lots of practice) to guarantee a point-on stick if one is throwing more than 10 feet or so.

Finally, it seems to me that when I throw "Thorn " style, longer, heavier knives benefit the throw since the propulsion is largely coming from the trebuchet action of my extended arm and the aid of gravity. But when throwing "Russian", shorter, lighter ones etc seem to work better with the propulsion coming from my shoulder and wrist muscles.
 
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Some of what you say is correct and some reflects a little bit of confusion as to which style is which, which is in fact quite understandable because to the naked eye it is very difficult to tell the differences. It took me literally years to figure out all the nuances of the major no spin styles.

There are three major no spin styles that appeared pretty much simultaneously about 12-15 years ago, back in in the dial-up era of the internet - mumyouan shuriken style in Japan, Fedin style in eastern Europe, Thorn style in America.

All three styles use almost an identical grip, the so called "finger of god". Mumyouan uses a locked-wrist style, with a sort of pushing or shot put release, and works best with small weapons, especially shuriken spikes, and from long range because the flight pattern is more of a true quarter spin. The defining feature of Thorn style is a flexible wrist action than makes a great deal of power and versatility from any angle possible. This ability to throw from all kinds of crazy angles from inside the 10 foot or so range can be seen in my earliest videos from years ago, now available in edited form on youtube on the thorn school channel. Thorn style works better with bigger weapons, as you said; for example throwing swords is quite easy with Thorn style, and it actually works best from close range because it is more of a straight line flight pattern. Fedin style seems to me to be a sort of hybrid of Thorn style and shuriken style, where the release is more of a frozen wrist, with early release (which creates the more elongated quarter spin flight pattern). Power is generated by an elongated wave motion of the whole body, which makes for a slow release where Thorn style has a much quicker and compact release.
People who first learn Thorn style can usually hit very easily within minutes of learning up to about 9-12 feet, where they hit a wall and have to change their mechanics; they have to release earlier and use more shoulder pivot action to generate power instead of just using the wrist. So in reality past 12 feet Thorn style throwers are hybridizing into a more shuriken or Fedin style and the reality is that for advanced throwers you are not going to hear much talk about Thorn vs. Mumyouan vs. Fedin because they are using whatever body mechanics are appropriate for the range, the angle and the particular throwing weapon. The differences are important for people that are first learning but after a few years they don't mean as much.
 
I of course, bow to the master! And thanks for weighing in. I wish I had the time away from work, farm and grand kids to come to your school. I basically learned how to throw by ordering the Paladin Press Combat Knife Throwing Video and watching you from the side, stopping the video one frame or two at a time and looking at your arm positions at different ranges. I also took your advice on always using the same hold from the first and breaking my wrist from the very beginning. I do now forget about style altogether most of the time. I have some knives that are basically shuriken and I tend to choke up on them to the balance point and push them ahead without a wrist break. This was pretty much trial and error and I no longer think about it. I found that I stuck them every time when I threw them shuriken style but sometimes missed when I didn't. I still find though that the more arm I use and the more exaggerated my throwing windup and arm extension, the more range I get and the more accurate the throws are with most larger knives. I also, after watching various videos of you doing it, enjoy starting at 25 feet or so and moving toward a target throwing as I go, quickly at various distances. I can't do it running yet but I can walk a normal pace and pretty much stick everything. Another fun game for me is to throw 12 knives of different weights and lengths in a box and pull them out one at a time and throw at about 16-20 feet at random order. It takes about 15 or 20 seconds of holding the thing in my hand and grasping it for my hand to somehow independently figure out the correct throw for it to stick. All fun stuff!!
 
Edward is an excellent thrower. He has obviously spent time and effort developing his technique. I would love to calculate the speed of his throws someday.

Windwhistler, here is the video Ralph mentioned: http://youtu.be/dyQckbd6Oao

I run the youtube channel and the facebook group. The 3 styles Ralph mentioned have influenced my throwing and I consider them to be the primary sources from which my style was born. I consider my style to be a hybridization with a personal touch.

Ralph Thorn is certainly the best source for English speaking beginners, and I think his "use what works" mentality is extremely important. After all, we all throw a bit differently. Moral of the story: don't forget the "me" ingredient in your throwing -- a rigid system can only carry you so far.
 
Hi Windwhistler and eralphthorn,

having read Ralphs book, and having published the Fedin technique, I wondered for years what their relation is. Great that this came up!

I'd love to publish a short note on the differences of the three throwing styles (along with with source links, to this forum, to the thorn school channel,...) on my website, and for this did a synthesis of the statements of Windwhistler and Ralph Thorn. Please, can you took have a look if I mixed any inaccuracys in there?:

All three styles use almost an identical grip, the so called "finger of god", with the index finger resting on the spine of the knife.

Mumyouan uses a locked-wrist style, with a sort of pushing or shot put release, and works best with small weapons, especially shuriken spikes, and from long range because the flight pattern is more of a true quarter spin.

The defining feature of Thorn style is a flexible wrist action that makes a great deal of power and versatility from any angle possible. It is basically spear throwing so you need to get the knife behind your back, low like a baseball pitcher warm up and bring it forward with as much exaggerated extended arm as possible. Thorn style works better with bigger weapons; for example throwing swords is quite easy, and it actually works best from close range because it is more of a straight line flight pattern. This style takes a good bit of athleticism.

Fedin style is a sort of hybrid of Thorn style and shuriken style, where the release is more of a frozen wrist, with early release (which creates the more elongated quarter spin flight pattern). Power is generated by an elongated wave motion of the whole body, which makes for a slow release where Thorn style has a much quicker and compact release.
It takes much less arm, the knife can be thrown from above shoulder level, just behind the head with the arm bent at the elbow often at almost 45 degrees. Just snap down on the knife, release it in the right place (a practice thing you can't explain) and keep your forefinger rigid to snap along the knife tang on release.

In reality, past 12 feet Thorn style throwers are hybridizing into a more shuriken or Fedin style.
 
This is a very interesting discussion. I don't consider myself an expert either yet I would like to make a few comments:
Windwhistler said:
...Since the elbow is so bent, you are propelling the knife forward with half of the leverage available if the arm is at nearly full extension. For me this substantially decreases my range.

… I have a buddy who throws Russian all the time and relies on much heavier muscle that I have to get distant hits with the shoulder and arm still bent.
Click to expand...

The elbow is not just "bent" it is also "locked" meaning it acts as a link in a sequential multi-link system: body => arm/elbow =>wirst=>index finger=> knife
No muscle should be involved for the purpose other than locking the arm / elbow - only so called "springy deformations" in your ligaments and tendons (that what a Fedin purist would say, but in practice I find it difficult to achieve)

Here is a very important tip: the elbow bone should always be pointing down towards the floor and always positioned in front of your hand / wrist.
In Fedin's system It is ALWAYS a pulling motion, NEVER pushing.
If you find your range decreases you are likely pushing the knife (i.e. your wrist got ahead of your elbow) and you have probably engaged the muscles.

Windwhistler said:
The "Russian" throws take more release control (lots of practice) to guarantee a point-on stick if one is throwing more than 10 feet or so.
Click to expand...

Actually, this is an interesting one. The phenomenal thing about Fedin's style is that after the magic 10 feet limit you should not make any adjustments at all unless you are using a different knife.
It has been illustrated (and can be seen in some slow motion videos) that when the knife first exits the hand it slowly turns in the air and after flying aprox. 10 feet it stops turning and begins to fly almost horizontally for the next 10-15 feet. So all other things are being equal you should make no adjustments at all and throw exactly the same way you do from 10 feet. Now, this is where I struggle too. My eyes and my mind simply refuse to believe this is being the case and I tend to make some adjustments where I should leave it alone. Now some folks on Russian forums recommend to overcome this by throwing with your eyes closed, imagining you are throwing at a glass wall just 10 feet away, etc. just to trick our natural propensity to adjust. This is kind of hard even though I have little problem doing this from about 15 feet now, but the further I get from the target the more I engage the muscle and the closer I am getting to the Thorn style. Also, this results in less powerful throws.

eralphthorn said:
Fedin style seems to me to be a sort of hybrid of Thorn style and shuriken style, where the release is more of a frozen wrist, with early release (which creates the more elongated quarter spin flight pattern). Power is generated by an elongated wave motion of the whole body, which makes for a slow release where Thorn style has a much quicker and compact release.
Click to expand...
Ralph, thanks for your thoughts, but I would respectfully disagree on the wrist issue. In Fedin style the wrist is never frozen except when it is locked at the end of the first wave (assuming the vertical plane of throw the palm towards the ceiling and the index finger with the knife tip pointing away from the target).

Re: the index finger: it acts as the last link in the chain (some would say that it is the knife which is the last one) with the knife inertia forces applying on it a downward pressure on the finger. When the index finger is completely "charged" i.e. it is ready to spring back (this is an important moment that you should wait for before you start the sequential PULL:
a) Pull by turning your body first
b) This in turn will start pulling your shoulder /hand/wrist/finger/knife (all locked acting as a one link)
c) When the motion is in progress (not completed yet) continue pulling with your elbow (by now the knife is springing up on your index finger)
d) Keep the elbow bone down and in front of your wrist
e) Finish the motion with your wrist (release the grip of the handle when the knife approaches your ear) and allow the knife to slide on your index finger

eralphthorn said:
So in reality past 12 feet Thorn style throwers are hybridizing into a more shuriken or Fedin style …
Click to expand...
Funny you say that. I thought I was approximating Thorn style when I am past 12 feet :) lol...
 
Brief responses to some of the above:

Thorn style requires NO athleticism and very low skill from close range. It is the easiest style, in all ways, from close range because you can do it with a flick of the wrist without any judging of distance or anything else. It requires MORE athleticism past the 12 feet or so range because you have to generate power like a baseball pitcher from that range; you have to power the weapon in using pure speed because with pure Thorn style the point is dropping faster than with locked release styles. It is important to make this distinction. Repeat: Thorn style is the easiest, least athletic no spin style from inside 12 feet; but it is the most athletic style from long range. I don't consider difficult or athletic styles good so I don't use the Thorn style no spin from long range very often. I switch to a blade throw or a hybrid no spin.

When I say Fedin is a locked wrist style, I meant at the moment of release it is a locked style. I didn't realize it was a locked elbow style as well but I am not surprised. That makes it more of a a shuriken variation. The underhand no spin is the same, it only works using the shoulder as a pivot and the wrist and elbow locked, and there are also some people who do a version of the "palm throw" that is an overhand no spin with locked wrist and elbow. It appears to me that the difference in Fedin style is that momentum is generated prior to the throw with flexible action then at release the weapon is "frozen" into an elongated spinless flight pattern.

Houzan Suzuki analyzed the flight pattern of my longer throws years ago and told me the Thorn flight pattern is much as you describe the Fedin flight pattern, that is, straighter than the more quarter-spin of the shuriken pattern.

This is very interesting information to me and to many recreational throwers, I am sure. Unfortunately there is no market for recreational throwing so in all my books and videos I only use "martial arts" type throws, throws that might actually be useful in hand to hand fighting. That's why I have never really gotten into Fedin style; the release is too slow for martial arts, but it is clearly an interesting variation and I would like to figure out exactly what it is he is doing that is different from me.

Also, when I said all three major no spin styles appeared about 12-15 years ago, I should have said that they appeared in a public version in that time period. Of course I was throwing for 2 decades before then, in fact there's a little clip on the Thorn school channel from 1991, and I am sure Houzan and Fedin had been throwing a long time before they went public as well.
 
What a wealth of information to a novice like me, excellent one and all. Now I've got a starting point, know where I want to go and you've all offered up a good plan for success and the route to travel. Thank you.

On a side note, we use a device here called a chronograph to determine the speed of flight of an object, you could theoretically throw your blade through the upright arms of a chronograph to determine feet or meters per second and then convert that data to miles per hour. Another way to do it might be to get a hold of a pitching gun from a sports team, but this would involve and element of foolish danger due to the fact someone has to stand down range and point that gun at a knife! Maybe a sheet of Lexan or heavy duty plexiglass if front of the holder of the gun?

Anyway, thank you all for the informative posts. Ed that is really neat and I can see the pride you took in building your backstop, keep up the great work.
 
Ok, I took some days to assemble all I could find (including on my own website) on no spin knife throwing, categorised and filtered it, and created a rather long page on no spin knife throwing (translated in German, too, for completeness):
KnifeThrowing.info/no_spin_knife_throwing.html
The page of course includes a backlink to this discussion, since I learned so much from the contributions especially by edojan, WindWhistler, and eRalphThorn.

I hope that is of some help for new throwers who want to learn no spin!

Christian
 
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