TI/G-10 frame locks - are they better? SNG, ZT0300, CQC12

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solvetek01

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Nov 3, 2007
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There is a lot of talk about frame locks being stronger and safer then lock liners. I am not sure that this is true for all frame locks.

The Strider SNG, Emerson CQC12 and ZT0300 are all frame locks where the manufacturer puts a thick piece of TI on one side (the lock side) and g-10 on the other side.

The CQC12 frame lock is .125 inch Titanium on one side and G-10 on the other side. .125 inches is about the same thickness as the blade on a CQC 7. I know that the Strider Sng and the ZT0300 build their frame locks the same way, that is Titanium on one side and G-10 on the other. I do not know how thick the Ti is on the SNG or ZT0300.

I am not an engineer but i think the Ti/G-10 frame may be weaker then some of the lock liners where there is Titanium on both sides of the pivot to stabilize it. I am just not sure how strong G-10 is.

Also I would think a full Ti frame lock (ti on both sides of the frame) such as the sebenza or the new TI junk yard dog is a much stronger design.

Any thoughts?
 
Rick Hinderer's XM-18 ALSO has a titanium liner along the G-10 side. I am fine with a Ti/G-10 or CF knife, at least with the customs that I own.
 
I would think all Ti would have some strength advantage on paper in one way or another, but I really can't imagine a scenario where I'm sitting there with my half Ti, half G-10 knife with a broken or deformed G-10 side wishing I would have gone with all Ti.

For the record, I very much prefer all Ti frame locks, but not because I question the strength of G-10.

Perhaps with years and years of use, the G-10 may wear down more than Ti. I could see an argument for that.

Strength, however, wouldn't concern me.
 
G10 and 6Al4V really aren't close, I think it's done just for grip and coolness factor
 
Solvetek01.

I have had several knives made this way sent to me to remove the G10 so I could install a titanium side for the owners of the knives. Of course I did it. The result was that the knife gained weight. How much strength it gained from this and if its worth the added strength for the weight gain is debateable though. Let me explain. I have never had one of the frame locks made this way where they have one side with G10 only sent to me for problems and I have never really seen any with problems. The reason people want them yanked is just from assuming its weaker this way. I may be guilty of this myself. However, in close exams of Strider SnGs and Emersons as well as my own after years of use I have not even really noted the oblong hole or oval shaped holes in the wear points like the stop pin or the pivot area from excessive pressure or use and on ones like the SnG that have a blade stop slam into it all the time on the one side its surprised me at how well the G10 holds up.

In my own weight tests on frame locks I built with titanium blades just for testing to failure the G10 sides held up exactly the same as the titanium and never once gave me any indication that this weakened the folder in anyway either laterally or veritically for strength. With that said though I am guilty of feeling a bit better about the ones with liners behind the G10 and do like that Hinderer design. It may be that its unnesscesary overbuild though. The truth is I do not know the actual numbers for strength between the 1/8" thick or thicker G10 vs the same thickness titanium but I would not be at all surprised to find out that the ti is perhaps stronger. I doubt its worth worrying about because both are still far stronger than the stresses that can be generated by even the most difficult uses in the human hand with a folder of this type though.

I recall reading on the Strider site that they make their knives this way because it is actually stronger. It may be it may not be I do not know. Perhaps Rick Hinderer knows something we don't or perhaps he feels as I do that it just makes him feel a little better to have a liner under it just in case and that its worth the added weight to put it in there. However if you note Rick uses a partial nested liner so its lighter weight.

And lastly. I want to stress something here in reading both here and on another thread tonight in the Emerson forum that strength is not the issue here between the liner lock and the frame lock guys! No one has said that the liner lock is not strong. You are confusing things and lets get this straight. The difference between these two lock types that is marked and the reason the frame lock is better is for the reliability factor not strength. Is the frame lock stronger? I think that depends a lot on how its built. In my own testing it seems readily apparent that the lock cuts made in frame locks to bend and spring the lock are the weak part of the armor of the frame lock. It is here and in the contact and more specifically the pitch angle and type of contact for the mating of the blade and lock that its more critical and of more concern in defeat tests than what the non lock side material is made from. Micarta by itself has also worked on these and stood up better than a weak lock cut or bad pitch angle.

Its also worth noting that even in a frame lock that does not have an optimal pitch angle or even a proper contact that the lock will be far more reliable in the hand simply for the fact that the hand and fingers are there to physically hold the lock in place if not squeeze it in better making up for any shortfallings it may have if it were say clamped in a vice in a free weight test without the hand there to support it.

It may be quite true that in stress or weight tests many liner locks, particularly the thicker ones could in fact be stronger or hold more weight than a frame lock. Both LLs or FLs will certainly hold up to the strongest forces a human hand or even two hands can muster though if they are made well. I will just add that many liner locks look strong and if they did their job they would be but when tested, all that strength is negated by the fact that after a certain amount of stress or weight on the contact the lock often times will simply slide off the interface allowing the blade to close. In some cases this weakness or tendency has been seen in spine taps but not always. Add lateral stress and sideways twist torques and you have a lock easily defeated in otherwise normal uses. This same tendency can also be exhibited in frame locks when tested if the hand is not there to support the lock but usually they tend to hold their place better from what I've seen.

The fact is that even if the liner lock is stronger than a frame lock, on its best day the liner lock is far less reliable than even a poorly made frame lock is and the liner lock is sure more likely to defeat on you in certain uses which the frame lock will sail right through with little worry and again this is because of the simple reason that your hand and fingers can never get in behind the lock to support it on the LL type folder the way it can on a frame lock. In other words it is far more critical that the lock contact be done correctly on a liner lock and that other things be done correctly as well because when they are not done correctly the fact that they are not will show up far more often and far easier with this design than they will with the frame lock design.

STR
 
Solvetek01

Looking over some of your last posts it looks like you are in a hard search for the strongest folder but would a fixed blade work for you? It would eliminate many issues with strength. Maybe a 3" fixed blade in a inside the pants sheath.

I hope I am not way off line here..........just my .02 and thought I would toss it out if it works for you.
 
A Rep.from Benchmade told me he compares G-10 to steel, regarding strength. Quote: "G-10 is tough as hell."
Lycosa
 
I think STR nails it down pretty well. All I can think of is how strong a folder is needed here - or would a fixed blade be the real answer? The human hand can only exert so much pressure on a lock pivot, beyond that it's all overbuild.

If the Extrema Ratio RAO with dual locking pins is made with aluminum grips, how much more would you need to justify Ti? I think the industry offers just about all that's needed in a folder for hand use now. The most important point of knife testing these days is not whether the knife is strong enough, it's whether the testing constitutes outright abuse and malicious damage, not a valid test situation.

Compared to the Buck 110 from 1964, we are using "folding pitots."
 
ZT 300 has Titanium/ G10+steel liner. It's strong and well made, no blade play & sharp out of the box .More than that, the Speed Safe works nice, fast enough, but not to fast, I like it :)
 
I'd personally trust a well made frame lock even with blade play over a liner lock with no play.
G-10 and pivot size might be consideration if you do alot of prying with the side of the blade. But that's not a good idea so...
 
All,

Thank you very much for your comments. I like to look at the pros and cons of different knife designs. In reality I do not need a super strong folder. I am not using it for anything that is abusive. If I were, I would agree that a fixed blade is the way to go. Also STR's post about frame locks adding reliability not necessarily strength was great. I am interested in what makes a folder reliable and strong and like to buy folders with these traits. I have learned a lot from all the posts.

Thanks
 
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