Ti Mil - wrong again and blade center ?

unit

unit

Joined
Nov 22, 2009
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I seem to be on a kick lately...I bought 2 new Militarys in the past week.

I guess having some extra mad money helps me to buy some stuff I do not "need". (I had some seriously good luck in the lottery).

Long story short, I picked up a LNIB orange Military from a new friend on the forums, and a Ti RIL Military from my dealer.

I have gone on record PUBLICLY stating that the Ti Military is not for me because it adds so much weight. That said, I always seem to make a hypocrite of myself. So when I got the checks from the state, I called up my dealer and said what the heck...it will look nice in my "collection".

OK, so it is a bit heavier, but that weight seems to be the small cost for making a seriously beefy knife. I have seen reports here and there that the lock is the same strength as the G-10 military, but to this untrained eye it certainly appears to have a lot more "balls". The added weight is not that noticeable either, and the ti texture really lets the knife in and out of the pocket easily.

So here it is, a public apology for dissing the Ti Military prior to handling it (stupid!)...and I will up the ante by claiming hypocrisy for going back on my word and buying one (and now recommending one to others).

If anyone knows of a semi-official (or official) statement regarding lock strength as compared to the G-10 model I would love to see it.

One final question. My Ti Mil has a slight blade center issue. I would not complain, send it in, or refuse to buy based on this slight off-center...so please do not take it that way. I am curious if anyone knows of a way to center it. I know the method for the G-10 model but I am not sure if it works for the Ti...Anyone?
 
Off center as in towards the lock scale or opposite?

Tq.

PS: try tightening little by little the main pivot.
 
Cotherion said:
Off center as in towards the lock scale or opposite?

Tq.

PS: try tightening little by little the main pivot.
Click to expand...

Towards the lock scale...and I do mean a *little* off center.

I checked all the screws (except the main pivot) and none were loose (though they could have thread locker on them?). If the main pivot is loose I would expect the lock bar to shove the blade the other way, and I do not think my pivot is too tight based on performance (it is fast). Thanks for the suggestion...when I get out my torx bits tonight, I will give it a try in spite of my suspicions to the contrary (I find I am just wrong far too often when I assume things).

Another interesting observation I had that I do not recall anyone mentioning. The main pivot screw is a Torx head of a larger size than any of my other knives. All previous Millies I have owned had a different fastener for the main pivot.
 
IIRC Sal posted in a thread on this forum regarding the lock strength of the Ti Mil to the effect that the RIL Ti Millie was as strong as the Liner-lock Millie.
 
What a Reeve Integral Lock has over the Liner Lock, is reliability. Titanium naturally galls, or is "sticky" when rubbed against steel. Most people say it's an absolute pain in the butt to shape the stuff. This means the lock bar is much less likely to slip off the blade tang under pressure.
 
Joshua J. said:
What a Reeve Integral Lock has over the Liner Lock, is reliability. Titanium naturally galls, or is "sticky" when rubbed against steel. Most people say it's an absolute pain in the butt to shape the stuff. This means the lock bar is much less likely to slip off the blade tang under pressure.
Click to expand...

I wonder if that's why Spyderco grinds the tang on the Military in an arch shape?
 
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Badhammer said:
IIRC Sal posted in a thread on this forum regarding the lock strength of the Ti Mil to the effect that the RIL Ti Millie was as strong as the Liner-lock Millie.
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I recall someone saying this, but I am not sure if it was Sal. I have no doubt that it is *as* strong as the liner-lock...my gut tells me that it could be *stronger*. My rationale is based on the observation that the RIL is a lot thicker than the liner lock and the spring tension on it seems a lot firmer. I am wrong a lot though...

I have heard claims for the RIL that among its advantages are the concept that as you grip the knife tightly your hand may actually force the lock bar into the blade in contrast to the liner lock where the scale prevents this and a cutout on the opposite scale can allow the opposite to happen.

All this is somewhat moot I suppose considering that I have experienced ZERO shortcoming with the liner lock on my G-10 Millies.
 
Reeek said:
I wonder if that's why Spyderco grinds the tang on the Military in an arch shape?
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I assumed this was done on all liner lock (and RIL) knives. It appears to me that it allows the knife to survive and function as the engagement face of the lock wears. There is friction between the lock face and the tang, and the tang wins the battle because it is harder. If the lock bar face wears and the tang is not arced like this there will be vertical blade play at "lock up".

This arc allows the lock to evolve as the knife wears. On old knives perhaps the lock bar swings a bit further before lock up is achieved. Eventually the lock bar will wear out, but on a well made knife it takes a LOOONG time.
 
As strong as the liner lock? No doubt and I'd have to bet stronger. The way it's fitted and with Ti over the tang base, it's way thicker than the liner lock to boot. Lock up it is part of the Ti handle slab feels brute strong to me.
345khaa.jpg
 
jill jackson said:
As strong as the liner lock? No doubt and I'd have to bet stronger. The way it's fitted and with Ti over the tang base, it's way thicker than the liner lock to boot. Lock up it is part of the Ti handle slab feels brute strong to me.
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Not sure that's necessarily true? The RIL lockbar is only as strong as the thinnest portion that's milled away at the far end of the lockbar.
 
JNewell said:
Not sure that's necessarily true? The RIL lockbar is only as strong as the thinnest portion that's milled away at the far end of the lockbar.
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I'd tend to agree - the lock strength rating of the standard Millie is so high I would think that most knives would fail at the same or near same rating anyway, whether they failed at the lockbar or the entire contruction integrity failed altogether in some form.
 
I'd bet the all metal handle Military would be stronger, myself. If they both was tested to the lock breaking point. I could be wrong and no doubt they both are strong enough to serve very well. The Ti just has a very beefy feel to the entire knife. Maybe it's misleading me because of it's added weight, but I hold it and think it feels like a very tough folder.
 
JNewell said:
Not sure that's necessarily true? The RIL lockbar is only as strong as the thinnest portion that's milled away at the far end of the lockbar.
Click to expand...

IDK. I do not want to be the armchair failure mode analyst, or claim to understand the statics and dynamics at play in making a lock fail. I just do not know. I suspect that there are a lot more factors than the thinnest portion of the bar when it comes to determining lock strength.

I can rationalize a lot of things in my head...but they are probably all wrong.

One thing I am fairly certain of though. At some point something will fail but will you ever take a knife to that point? I probably won't in the case of this particular beast.

I hope Sal pops in pretty soon and sets me straight...I bet he has seen one fail.
 
jill jackson said:
I'd bet the all metal handle Military would be stronger, myself. If they both was tested to the lock breaking point. I could be wrong and no doubt they both are strong enough to serve very well. The Ti just has a very beefy feel to the entire knife. Maybe it's misleading me because of it's added weight, but I hold it and think it feels like a very tough folder.
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Jill,

I'm not disputing your point and I am certain the Ti feels beefier in hand than the G10. I'll get mine soon enough. Just the heft may help toward that bank vault feel. All I'm saying is a 500 lb. rating seems enough to damage a knife somewhere, even if it's not the lockbar that fails first. I have never seen a knife lock rating test in person and don't really know what the primary failure point is in such tests when the weight exeeds the integrity of the design but I would think that the entire knife can distort and deform before the lockbar fails in some cases.

Regardless, I respect your knife knowledge and am not basing my thoughts on science. Just assumption :)

500 lbs. (give or take) seems enough for any folder to me, regardless of the design and/or materials.
 
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The cut-out portion is stil 0.053" thick on mine.
So, it's as thick as the liner on the G-10 model(a bit thicker than on some), and the thinned portion is shorter, allowing for less flex.
No way the lock strength could be less.
 
There is also the fact that Ti is stronger than steel. Here is a few lines I found about it:

"The specific weight of titanium is about two thirds that of steel and about 60 percent higher than that of aluminum. In tensile and sheet stiffness, titanium falls between steel and aluminum. But titanium's strength (80,000 PSI for pure titanium and 150,000 PSI and above for its alloys) is far greater than that of many alloy steels, giving it the highest strength-to-weight ratio of any of today's structural metals."
 
spoonrobot said:
If I understand it correctly it's called a radiused tang and here's a pretty good explanation.
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I would agree with this.

I personally think that the radiused arc is HOW you make a liner lock. Unfortunately everyone today thinks it's OK to just cut a angled bevel. Spyderco knows how to do liner locks. Early on, Benchmade did too. Now it seems that very few makers can make a liner lock properly.

unit said:
I assumed this was done on all liner lock (and RIL) knives. It appears to me that it allows the knife to survive and function as the engagement face of the lock wears. There is friction between the lock face and the tang, and the tang wins the battle because it is harder. If the lock bar face wears and the tang is not arced like this there will be vertical blade play at "lock up".

This arc allows the lock to evolve as the knife wears. On old knives perhaps the lock bar swings a bit further before lock up is achieved. Eventually the lock bar will wear out, but on a well made knife it takes a LOOONG time.
Click to expand...

100% correct. Without the arc the liner lock develops play after it reaches a certain point.
 
I think that folders, and especially LLs and FLs, have so many failure modes that probably the only way to really be sure is destructive testing, which I know Sal & Co. do, but they (reasonably) don't publish the results.

I will say that if Sal makes a knife and decides it is safe to sell to us, I will buy it - and think no more about it, honestly. :thumbup:

unit said:
IDK. I do not want to be the armchair failure mode analyst, or claim to understand the statics and dynamics at play in making a lock fail. I just do not know. I suspect that there are a lot more factors than the thinnest portion of the bar when it comes to determining lock strength.

I can rationalize a lot of things in my head...but they are probably all wrong.

One thing I am fairly certain of though. At some point something will fail but will you ever take a knife to that point? I probably won't in the case of this particular beast.

I hope Sal pops in pretty soon and sets me straight...I bet he has seen one fail.
Click to expand...
 
Only when compared by weight. FWIW, Gayle Bradley chose SS liners rather Ti.


jill jackson said:
There is also the fact that Ti is stronger than steel. Here is a few lines I found about it:

"The specific weight of titanium is about two thirds that of steel and about 60 percent higher than that of aluminum. In tensile and sheet stiffness, titanium falls between steel and aluminum. But titanium's strength (80,000 PSI for pure titanium and 150,000 PSI and above for its alloys) is far greater than that of many alloy steels, giving it the highest strength-to-weight ratio of any of today's structural metals."
Click to expand...
 
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