time for some "traditional", and "traditional" questions

H

hammerfall

Joined
Oct 2, 2010
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the truth is i have no idea what type blade really count as "traditional japanese blade". i perfer mats from modern metallurgy, and usually i am not big fan of those "slagy pig iron" forge welding blade. but i had came cross a few of this type blades, and they had really caught my eyes. here are some photos

feilong1.png


feilong2.png


feilong3.png


so my question is how do you get this type of hamon? i understand the result of clay method is to form martensite on edge, and pearlite on spine. but how do you get those little white shade like stuff(seems like troosite or high tempered martensite) leaping from the temper line?
 
i meant those white shade that has some distance from temper line. how do you get that?

do you paint the cement or clay of different pattern to get it?
 
Wow you picked a good one. The combination of the clay ht and the material used along with very tight temperature control. The thickness of the clay has a lot to do with it also. In short, there is really no short answer to give to this question.

Japanese smiths work for decades before they reach a level of proficiency to get the pattern they want and be able to repeat it. I would recommend getting the book, The Craft of the Japanese Sword. Yoshindo Yoshiharo is a great smith and explains his process there. Good luck, you have started down a long and confusing road.
 
Yeah, there is a large amount of esoteric and very specific phenomena relating to hamon and hada in blades. It's fascinating. One commonly known yet hard to achieve effect is utsuri, which are kind of secondary subtle billows of white in the dark steel above the hamon. This, for instance is achieved not only by clay placement but by very subtle control of localized heat zones, judged by eye and feel. And lots of experience and practice. Yoshindo does this, not many Japanese smiths can. I've seen Don Fogg blades with it, actually.

Not sure what you mean by "slaggy pig iron forge welding blade." You can't really forge weld pig iron into anything. If you are talking about common damascus patterns, I find the term a little demeaning...
 
Salem Straub said:
Not sure what you mean by "slaggy pig iron forge welding blade." You can't really forge weld pig iron into anything. If you are talking about common damascus patterns, I find the term a little demeaning...
Click to expand...

what i mean is use that demean term as a sarcastism for my own inogance. i just didn't believe tamahagane type can turn out to be such work of art. and until i seen this one...sorry for that misunderstanding. alas english is not my first.

anyway, a smith from Guang Dong made this one. he rarely make any japanese blade, most of his work are traditional chinese knife/sword. this is one of the few japanese blade made by him.
 
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another thing i am curious, is that possible to make same hammon effect with high purity/dispersion steel made from ESR/VAR that has same chemicals with tamahagane? or does it have to be the "tamahagane" to make this kind of hamon?

have anyone made this type of hammon with modern tool steels?
 
I've seen some very nice hamon in 1095 and W1/W2, lots of activity. The most active hamon I have seen are in blades from tamahagane, however. The "hada" or subtle watering patterns from the laminating add to the beauty and complexity. A lot has to do with polishing methods, too. Traditional polishing in these types of swords really reveals the grain patterns and varying conditions present in the steel.

Your Guang Dong smith does a great job.

Here's a couple Don Fogg blades in 1095.
http://www.dfoggknives.com/images/BF2800.jpg
http://www.dfoggknives.com/images/YakuzaIll.jpg
 
As a metallurgical answer, The amount of alloy in the blade metal will determine the amount of activity the hamon can develop. Tamahagane is made with no alloying, and thus is superb for a hamon. Other low Mn steels work well, but unless you had a special smelting of steel, tamahagane would be hard to match for low alloy content. The thousands to millions of layers in true tamahagane will also produce the superb hada that makes those blades distinctive.
 
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