Time to buy a real grinder, advice needed.

J

J. MacDonald

Joined
Jun 8, 2000
Messages
3,140
So I've been struggling with a Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder for a while now and am really frustrated. I've also been building a 2x72 of my own design based on a donor machine that was originally made for another purpose entirely. In the end, if I finish my home built grinder, it will be like a Grizzly on steroids. Much more rigid than a Grizzly, but not really as flexable as I'd like. This point was really driven home after spending most of last Saturday in Steve Ryan's shop watching him work and asking too many questions It was an awesome time for me! Steve's a great guy, and it was an honor to be able to take up some of his time. Watching him work on his Hardcore and looking at his Burr King made me really realize that I've been fighting my machines a lot and wasting lots of time and energy.

I've decided that for my 43rd birthday I'm going to take the plunge and buy a real knifemaker's grinder. I've already sold some knives to help pay for the project (from my collection, not like anyone would pay for one I've made yet) and have a few more still for sale (think Exchange Forum).

I follow most grinder threads and can use search, but have some specific questions that I don't think I've seen answered.

The machines I'm considering are the Hardcore, Burr King 960-272, the Bader BIII and the Beaumont Metalworks KMG-1. OK, that's a bit of an overstatement. Those are all the machines I'd like to own, but because of the pricing, the Hardcore and the Burr King are pretty well knocked out right away, unless someone can give me solid reasons why it would be worth incurring debt to get one of those two. It seems to me that the Hardcore and Burr King are generally a different form factor than the Bader and the KMG-1. Is there a real advantage to either approach?

Because I can supply the drive myself and already have a 2hp rated Toshiba VFD (Thanks again PSO) that I bought for my home built project, and the general good things I've heard about it, I'm leaning towards a KMG-1. I figure that with a KMG-1 and some options, I can get off for about a grand which I could probably scrape up the cash for if one or two more knives sell. Beyond that I'd probably have to borrow from our savings and I try to keep my hobby purchases self financed, not to take away from the general houshold money (keeps the hobby purchases mostly guilt and grief free).

Between the Bader and the KMG, is there a real advantage one way or the other?

What attachments are must haves? I'm thinking at a minimum, a flat platen and a contact wheel, but it seems a small wheel option would be good to have as well as it will be a while before I could add a horizontal grinder. What size contact wheel is most useful (thinking 8" or 10")? What size small wheel?

Regarding the drive: Will a good TEFC 1.5HP 3 phase motor (Baldor or TECO) and a good VFD give me enough speed flexability as opposed to a DC setup? My VFD is rated for full output with single phase in so it doesn't need to be de-rated like a three phase input rated one would. Is the extra 1/2 HP worth it to go all the way to a 2HP motor and max out the VFD or should I stay at 1.5HP and leave some headroom in the VFD? On the belt and pulleys, should I go V belt or a cogged timing belt? If a V belt, single speed or step pulleys?

I'm planning to mount whichever grinder I end up with on either a 3/8" thick I- beam and plate pedestal (probably 125-150lbs) or a big ass cast iron pedestal (probably near 250 or 300lbs) that I have. Pedestal mounting would fit better in my shop, but I could bench mount it if there's any advantage. I'd think the pedestal mount would allow for easier clean up, but am open to suggestions.

What do you guys think?

John
 
Man it's nice to hear from someone who's been doing his homework! :D

There'll be many opinions here and it looks like I get to get it going again. I'll stick my neck out and say that you're probably gonna have more recommendations for the KMG than anything else, and I'm no different. If I had it to do over again that's what I'd buy. I got a BIII about five years ago and I love it, but the KMG is every bit the machine and maybe more of a tank than the Bader.

Accessories first. I'd recommend a smooth 10" wheel. Mine is serrated and while it's great for hogging it has something of a finishing deficit. You'll be able to knock off volumes of steel with a smooth wheel and get much better finishing results.

I have a 5/8" small wheel and usually think it's too small. Yet with it I can get into (or create) tight spaces I couldn't with a 3/4" wheel, and with care you can do larger radii with the smaller wheel.

The KMG platen is better than the Bader on two fronts: you can adjust its angle and it has a nice big rest. I've actually been thinking about replacing my original platen and rest with Rob's. One thing to be sure to do is surface your platen with a pyroceramic plate. It's perfectly flat, offers much less friction and wears more slowly than the steel surface. You'll want to radius the edges of the pyroceram a bit where the belt rides over it and perhaps a bit on the sides for working the plunge lines.

More power is better. I have 1.5 hp DC and I can stall it easily enough when tapering tangs. Again, had I known better at the time I'd have bought 2 hp VFD.

I mounted my grinder on a big heavy bench. I would not feel comfortable with it on a stand, even a 300 pounder. Often enough I really lean into the wheel or platen and I'd probably push it over if it was on a stand. Just my thought, I've never tried any other way.

And I think that's about all I have to offer. Whenever I get a second machine it's going to be like what I've described here. It's great to hear that you're ready to buy a real knifemaker's grinder. You'll find that you'll use it for all kinds of non-knife related stuff too, which might help justify its expense. I'm really lucky that my wife fully appreciates the value of buying good tools. She never gives me much grief as long as I don't go dipping too deeply into the general fund, especially if I'm good about keeping her kitchen knives and garden tools sharp. ;)
 
I have no advice about the different grinders you speak of, however I have to just say that I made an error when I placed my grinder with the wheel over the work bench.

I should have had the wheel spinning out over the edge in the air so that I can do things without the work bench getting in the way all the time.

I saw one guy with a water pipe under the wheel, that would have been a good thing for me had I had the room. Another thing that is a real problem with a work bench under the wheel is doing some parts of longer blades.

good luck!
 
I use a wilton square wheel at home for extra projects. The wheels change out faster and the tool rest is easily modified to meet my requirements. It also uses a cover that protects you from the dreaded belt slap. at the shop we use a b111 variable speed. 2 things to change are the tool rest sucks and only is with the flat patten and if it throws a belt, theres nothing energizing like having a 36 grit belt crawling up your arm.

If you can go variable speed. The control you get in unbelieveable. :cool:
 
I have used Burr King and Wilton grinders at a former work place.
The Burr King was a great grinder---very smooth, but a real PITA to change setups.
The Wilton was not nearly as smooth, about all I liked of it was that you were fairly well protected from a broken belt. Like was mentioned above there's nothing quite like getting slapped with a 36 grit belt. It hurts like HELL!

I have a KMG in my shop and love it. It's nearly a smooth as a Burr King and very easy to change the setups. A great machine!

As for your motor/drive question..........

I have several DC and 3 phase AC motors/drives laying around my shop. When the KMG first arrived I set it up with a 1 1/2 HP DC motor. It was fully serviceable, but wanted to bog down when I tried to really hog the metal.
Then I pit a 1 1/2 hp AC motor on it and it seemed to have a little more torque and overall a beter way to go.
Next I put a 2 HP AC motor on it. With this motor/drive I found it nearly impossible bog it down, far more difference that I expected a 1/2 hp to make.

Origionally I had planned to go up to 3 HP, but the way this is running now I think I'll stay with the 2 horse motor and VFD. It does all I ask of it with ease.

Hope this helps.

mike
 
You are wise to get what you call a "real" grinder. I mowed lawns on the side 25 years ago to be able to get a Wilton Square wheel grinder. With that grinder I quickly paid for it with the knives I sold and since that time have purchased a Burr King, JL horizontal grinder, Dozier Grinder, and made one myself based on the square wheel design. I like them all. I don't think you will go wrong with any of the ones you have mentioned. Personally I use the Wilton more than any of the others. It's probably because it's the one I started with.
You can see my shop on my web page, http://www.cavemen.net/lewisknives/
 
Cool shop Tom, thanks for sharing.

C'mon guys, give me some more feedback on some of my specifics like what accessories are must haves, wheel sizes, etc...

John
 
John, I have a 2 x 72 KMG, a 2 x 72 grizzly and a couple other smaller ones. I find that even though I have that nice KMG with all the attatchments, I get just as much use out of my grizzly. That grizzly is a workhorse and does a spectacular job. If its a money issue than go with the grizzly and upgrade later and use your grizzly as backup.

As to answer a couple of your questions..... The KMG is top notch and you wont be dissapointed. I cant say anything about the others since I dont own one. Rob gives great service and is there to answer any questions you might have.

Attatchments - With my KMG I have a slack attatchment, Platen, and a small wheel attatchment. I use the platen and the Small wheel attatchment ALL the time and wouldnt want to be without those. I tend to use the slack on my grizzly quite often so If I had to do it over I would have stayed away from the slack attatchment. Also I have a 10" wheel for doing Hollow grinds. I dont do to much hollow grinding but its niceto have If I need it.

A good motor with a nice controller sure helps. Hope this gives you some help

Shane
 
John.

There is a Wilton Square wheel available on eBay with a buy it now price of $250.

Item description: "This grinder is in need of some repairs. The large side panel needs a hinge, the top guard requires either repair or replacement. A work holding "foot" and cleaning with paint. This machine is not beyond repair and I used it as is for quite a while. Guaranteed to work but sold as a repair project. I guess it weighs about 100lbs sent UPS ground."

I don't know if we are allowed to direct lnk to auctions so just search "belt grinders" or I'll save the link and you can shoot me an email for it if you are interested.

Regards,
Greg
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
I have no advice about the different grinders you speak of, however I have to just say that I made an error when I placed my grinder with the wheel over the work bench.

I should have had the wheel spinning out over the edge in the air so that I can do things without the work bench getting in the way all the time.

I saw one guy with a water pipe under the wheel, that would have been a good thing for me had I had the room. Another thing that is a real problem with a work bench under the wheel is doing some parts of longer blades.

good luck!
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I'LL JUST SAY DITTO to this. Spend time previewing your set up and exhaust positioning. I'd buy another KMG. Fred
 
Ripper,Iput a bid in on the geinder.I have one and want another.I passed my performance test for master smith this last weekend and will be in need of another grinder in the near future. Thanks Robert Washburn abs journeyman smith.Washburnknives.com
 
robert washburn said:
Ripper,Iput a bid in on the geinder.I have one and want another.I passed my performance test for master smith this last weekend and will be in need of another grinder in the near future. Thanks Robert Washburn abs journeyman smith.Washburnknives.com
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Good luck with the auction and CONGRATS on the performance test!
Regards,
Greg
 
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