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Titainium??
- Thread starter Tim Reese
- Start date
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- Nov 27, 2002
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I've heard that Ti can really clog up your sharpening stones. Otherwise the only Ti I've ever used was spinner bait 
great stuff.
great stuff.
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- May 17, 2002
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Titanium doesn't take a very keen edge and since it's about 15 points on the Rockwell scale below top grade cutlery steels, it gets dull fairly fast.
I personally don't think that Ti makes a very good blade material. Even if you need a 100% rust-proof knife there's still Talonite and other cobalt alloys available at a similar price point.
IMO the only useful application of Ti blades is in knives for military divers.
I personally don't think that Ti makes a very good blade material. Even if you need a 100% rust-proof knife there's still Talonite and other cobalt alloys available at a similar price point.
IMO the only useful application of Ti blades is in knives for military divers.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2001
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The way Mission heat treats their titanium it will take an edge along the lines of 440c, but will hold it longer.
I agree that Stellite ot Talonite are better choices for most applications but they are also softer materials than steel.
If you hit a staple in a box with Titanium/Stellite/Talonite you will probably get about the same edge deformation in each one.
Ti actually has very good abrasion resistance and will naturally oxidize to create micro serrations. Which make it cut better than it may actually feel.
I think as a general utility knife you would be better off with any of the better steels. If you need strong resistance to rust go with Stellite or Talonite, if you need no magnetic signature and great flexability go with Titanium.
With that said, it is neat to know you have a knife made from 100% Ti and if you're just looking for a cool light use knife the MPU is a good choice.
I have had a couple of pieces from Mission and was satisfied with Ti for general use. But I would prefer a steel blade in general, Stellite or Talonite as a second choice, Ti third since I just don't need the advantages it offers.
I agree that Stellite ot Talonite are better choices for most applications but they are also softer materials than steel.
If you hit a staple in a box with Titanium/Stellite/Talonite you will probably get about the same edge deformation in each one.
Ti actually has very good abrasion resistance and will naturally oxidize to create micro serrations. Which make it cut better than it may actually feel.
I think as a general utility knife you would be better off with any of the better steels. If you need strong resistance to rust go with Stellite or Talonite, if you need no magnetic signature and great flexability go with Titanium.
With that said, it is neat to know you have a knife made from 100% Ti and if you're just looking for a cool light use knife the MPU is a good choice.
I have had a couple of pieces from Mission and was satisfied with Ti for general use. But I would prefer a steel blade in general, Stellite or Talonite as a second choice, Ti third since I just don't need the advantages it offers.
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How come? It's much softer, so why should it hold an edge longer?
- Joined
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Blade softness has more to do with how a knife will act when impacted than it does with edge retention.
Edge retention is based heavily on abrasion resistance. Stellite and Talonite have great abrasion resistance so they will keep an edge a long time after they start to feel dull. Titanium also has high abrasion resistance but not as high as some of the better steels on the market. I also oxidizes to create micro-serrations which lend to this.
There are many things that make up a good knife blade and hardness primarily is related to chipping, denting rolling of the edge.
While I won't argue that blade hardness is very important it's not the only factor that contributes to the overall performance of a blade.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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Quiet Storm :
Missions Ti takes a fine shaving edge.
This is the real negative, the edge will roll quite fast. Mission compensated for this on the MPK-Ti by putting in a couple of inches of serrations and the edge life on them is very high for slicing because of the very coarse finish. They will continue to slice ropes and such long past the point where plain edge steel blades are requiring much more force.
cpirtle :
Edges dull by deformation via rolling much more so than wear on most materials, and this is basically tensile strength which is highly correlated to hardness.
Note as well that while the wear resistance of Ti is very high, this doesn't translate well to actual wear in use. While Ti gets very hot when you grind it and the oxide formation makes cutting it very difficult with sanding belts, if you try for example to cut a steel belted tube with a MPK-Ti, you can actually cut the serrations right off the blade whereas the serrations on a SOG SEAL (440A) can actually cut the steel belted rubber.
-Cliff
Missions Ti takes a fine shaving edge.
This is the real negative, the edge will roll quite fast. Mission compensated for this on the MPK-Ti by putting in a couple of inches of serrations and the edge life on them is very high for slicing because of the very coarse finish. They will continue to slice ropes and such long past the point where plain edge steel blades are requiring much more force.
cpirtle :
Edges dull by deformation via rolling much more so than wear on most materials, and this is basically tensile strength which is highly correlated to hardness.
Note as well that while the wear resistance of Ti is very high, this doesn't translate well to actual wear in use. While Ti gets very hot when you grind it and the oxide formation makes cutting it very difficult with sanding belts, if you try for example to cut a steel belted tube with a MPK-Ti, you can actually cut the serrations right off the blade whereas the serrations on a SOG SEAL (440A) can actually cut the steel belted rubber.
-Cliff
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Can't this be overcome (to some extent) by edge geometry though?
Seems to me that a little thincker edge would be less likely to roll, or at least not roll as easily. Of course that would come at a cost as well.
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Uhm...you can't have both (shaving sharp and a long edge life (by putting serrations and a coarse edge on it) at the same time, can you?
If a knife doesn't dull very quickly, but doesn't have a really sharp edge to begin with - I don't think that's good news.
And if the knife's shaving sharp but loses this edge soon - not very good news either.
I'm not bashing Mission or Ti in general, but the purpose of this material is very limited and the price is extraordinarily high. I'm sure that those who need knives with Titanium blades are more than happy with Mission's products, but for most people steel is just the way to go IMO.
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Quiet Storm, I think your absolutely right, steel is a better choice for most people. Even over Talonite or Stellite.
If you read up on Missions site and in their forum I don't think they really try to say that their Ti blades should replace steel ones. Although their hype and marketing say differently.
Like any specialized tool they serve a niche market and they do that very well IMO.
If you need the properties Ti blades offer it's the best product going.
Like I said, I've owned Mission knives before and was not dissatisfied with their performance, and I need none of the properties Ti offers. As a fan of knives I just like the variety and change of pace Ti offers.
I think someone who buys one of their knives expecting a replacement for steel will be unhappy, if you're just looking for something different and know the limitations you'll probably be pleasantly surprised.
"Uhm...you can't have both (shaving sharp and a long edge life (by putting serrations and a coarse edge on it) at the same time, can you?"
IMO a knife does not have to shave to be a very useable edge, Ti will cut well long after it stops shaving, so will Talonite or Stellite. Just because you can get it shaving is no indication of how long it will shave, it's how useful the knife continues to be after it stops shaving...
If you read up on Missions site and in their forum I don't think they really try to say that their Ti blades should replace steel ones. Although their hype and marketing say differently.
Like any specialized tool they serve a niche market and they do that very well IMO.
If you need the properties Ti blades offer it's the best product going.
Like I said, I've owned Mission knives before and was not dissatisfied with their performance, and I need none of the properties Ti offers. As a fan of knives I just like the variety and change of pace Ti offers.
I think someone who buys one of their knives expecting a replacement for steel will be unhappy, if you're just looking for something different and know the limitations you'll probably be pleasantly surprised.
"Uhm...you can't have both (shaving sharp and a long edge life (by putting serrations and a coarse edge on it) at the same time, can you?"
IMO a knife does not have to shave to be a very useable edge, Ti will cut well long after it stops shaving, so will Talonite or Stellite. Just because you can get it shaving is no indication of how long it will shave, it's how useful the knife continues to be after it stops shaving...
One advantage Mission's Ti based knives offer besides those already mentioned is weight savings. The difference is obvious in the hand. If you were into ultra-lightweight backpacking, the Mission knife would allow you to carry a full size knife at a small knife weight expense.
I have knives that won't shave hair but cut very well. Cutting ability and shaving ability are two different properties. My razor will shave easily but, it would make a very poor knife in general. You can see the same effect at home by sharpening a knife with a very coarse stone and using it. Repeat with a medium stone and finally polish the edge.
I have knives that won't shave hair but cut very well. Cutting ability and shaving ability are two different properties. My razor will shave easily but, it would make a very poor knife in general. You can see the same effect at home by sharpening a knife with a very coarse stone and using it. Repeat with a medium stone and finally polish the edge.
Cliff Stamp
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cpirtle, yes you could put a secondary bevel on the knife which would increase the strength of the edge, but it would have to be fairly steep in order to overcome the large difference in strength and now you have given up a lot of cutting ability.
quiet storm :
The serrations don't shave very well given the finish (it is much more coarse than any hone, similar to an 80 grit belt or more), however the plain edge can be left at a fine edge for any precision cutting, and you leave the heavy slicing to the serrations.
The serrations are very sharp, and the cutting ability very high for slicing, no they are not very sharp for push cutting but the primary edge can be made to do so well.
In regards to steel being better in general, Ti has advantages of being lighter (which could also be seen as a disadvantage), it is very corrosion resistant, and it is much tougher and more flexible than cutlery stainless steels or the Cobalt alloys. It does have a definate disadvantage though in regards to the RC (as do the Cobalt alloys), and it isn't cheap.
As a general use blade, if you don't need the corrosion resistance, you can get similar or better levels of toughness and ductility with a tool steel and get it much harder at the same time, so that would be a better bet. However if you want corrosion resistance, while at the same time a high level of toughness and ductility, Ti stands out above the stainless and cobalt alloys. If you want corrosion resistance but don't need a high level of toughess and ductility there are stainless alloys that would work better.
-Cliff
quiet storm :
The serrations don't shave very well given the finish (it is much more coarse than any hone, similar to an 80 grit belt or more), however the plain edge can be left at a fine edge for any precision cutting, and you leave the heavy slicing to the serrations.
The serrations are very sharp, and the cutting ability very high for slicing, no they are not very sharp for push cutting but the primary edge can be made to do so well.
In regards to steel being better in general, Ti has advantages of being lighter (which could also be seen as a disadvantage), it is very corrosion resistant, and it is much tougher and more flexible than cutlery stainless steels or the Cobalt alloys. It does have a definate disadvantage though in regards to the RC (as do the Cobalt alloys), and it isn't cheap.
As a general use blade, if you don't need the corrosion resistance, you can get similar or better levels of toughness and ductility with a tool steel and get it much harder at the same time, so that would be a better bet. However if you want corrosion resistance, while at the same time a high level of toughness and ductility, Ti stands out above the stainless and cobalt alloys. If you want corrosion resistance but don't need a high level of toughess and ductility there are stainless alloys that would work better.
-Cliff