Titanium Anodization ?'s

Alan Folts

Alan Folts

Joined
Oct 4, 1998
Messages
427
Well, I finally broke down and purchased my electro anodization setup and I have a few questions for those of you that do this process already...

Okay, I have already been told that if you pre etch the peices in acid it will make the colors more briliant, what does this do to the finish??? Does this increase the vibrancy of the color because of a finish change or becasue it opens up the grain structure and erase any oxidation that is already there...

Second question, I have been told that certain electrolytes make certain colors better or brighter...So my question is do you use a certain solution for everything or is it a good idea to keep certain solutions on hand to do different colors with?? And do you know why they work better????

Thanks in advance for any help, I am dying to give this thing a try... both in my custom stuff and in a few knives in my collection...
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Thanks, Alan...
 
I have been using my system now for about three months. I find that all the different chemicals and acids that are supposed to enhance the color, etc. realy don't do much for me! I use about a heaping tablespoon of trisodium phosphate in my tank that holds about 1.5 gallons. I use softened tap water, found no difference using distilled water. I soak my pieces in hot water first with the trisodium, then anodize.
The only variable I've found as far as how the colors look, is how much I polish the Ti. first. The better the surface finish of the titanium the richer the colors look.
My biggest problem is getting one color over an entire piece. The only color I can seem to get right is gold. Everything else comes out rainbow colored!!! It looks cool but I would like to be able to hit all the colors separatly. Plain red to me is impossible! Let me know how your system works out.
 
I have always read that diet coca-cola is the best electrolyte to use hands-down. Much better and cheaper than TSP, even.
And, Doc, about that red color. There is a reason you can't seem to get red with titanium: both titanium and its reactive cousin niobium are unable to be anodized red due to their chemical structure. So if you want red, you can try all you want but you'll never, ever, in a million years of trying, be able to get it. Sorry!
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My Custom Kydex Sheath pagehttp://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/knifehome.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
 
Chiro,
Now you have me seeing red without the anodizing! I was never told that in all the disucussions I had with the suppliers I used to get set up!
Alright, call it scarlett or muave, but there is a color between the gold and the magenta color that looks like candy apple red! That's the color I can't get, over an entire liner. I can do smaller parts with it but over a larger piece like a liner lock frame it turns rainbow! I don't know what the limitations are. I see production Ti knives done in one solid color!
 
Chiro and Dr. Lathe, I think that reddish hue is a spectrum transition color, or perhaps some sort of weird interference color caused by adjoining color shifts, since I've seen it a couple times in "rainbowed" pieces, but have never been able to actually duplicate it, even at different voltage settings and solution concentrations. Golds, blues, even the violets, but no "real" red. Never tried Diet Coke, but it's worth a shot. I used to have spotty coverage, with color shifts where the part was hung or connected to the anode lead, but I found you can simply move the lead or point of contact, hit it with the same voltage, and it evens out nicely.

Chiro, any thoughts about whether or not to use stainless wire for the anode or dipping hooks? I was told that Ti wire will give a cleaner color, or won't "contaminate" the bath like stainless wire, but I'm not sure if this is theory or real practice. Besides, ever try to find or get a price on Ti wire? Yikes!

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Don LeHue

The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.


 
I don't know about stainless...it probably depends on how big a tank you are using. A few stray "stainless steel" molecules floating around wouldn't mnake that big of a deal, probably, but it would probably be a good idea to change the solution more frequently. Another bonus of using diet Coke!

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My Custom Kydex Sheath pagehttp://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/knifehome.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
 
Don,
I have used both stainless and Ti. for anode and dipping hook. I did notice that the Ti. hook didn't foul the hole in the part that was being anodized as much as the stainless one. I have Ti. sheet that I can shear a thin enough to make a dipping hook. I heat and bend the end and it works pretty well. If you want one Email me and I will put one in the mail. I made both a stainless and Ti. anode that I rolled to fit the inside of my tank. It goes all the way around the part I am dipping. I noticed no difference in the anodizing between the two. I dont have anymore Ti that is soft enough to roll! If you think a flat anode would work, I could make you one! Does the anode shape make any difference????
 
Dr. Lathe, you are indeed a gentleman, what a generous offer, I'll e-mail with my address.
For the cathode/tank, I've been using a 12 or a 16 quart, very cheap stainless stock pots from Wally World (WalMart) with very good luck. It took care of the tank and cathode plate both at the same time, and simply requires a bit more attention not to turn the power on until you're really ready, otherwise putzing over a stainless stock pot with an energized anode is a good way to practice changing fuses in the power supply I'm using.
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Don LeHue

The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.




[This message has been edited by DonL (edited 01 September 1999).]
 
Thanks to the advice and info of folks on this forum, I recently tried my hand at anodizing, too. I've been thrilled with the results.

My power source is just the AC/DC power unit from Marking Methods that I use to etch my mark on blades (set to DC only for this, of course). It only gets up to 36 volts, so my color range is somewhat limited, but I'm still thrilled. I get a gold that goes through a brief purple into a deep blue and then a sky blue as I increase power. I'm using diet Coke as my medium and a curved copper sheet for the cathode. I've done both pure Ti and 6Al4V with no noticeable difference in effects.

I tried using the copper clip my system had for holding parts, but this caused anodization to weaken around the clip (showing as no color at the clipped area and a spectrum to the expected color radiating out from it). This occurs where any other metal contacts the anodized part (I experimented with an old liner that has brass bolsters pinned to it). I fixed this by actually taking an old Ti liner and using it as the "clip" to hold the part, and clipping the power source to this. I see very little color difference in the area the part is held by now, and moving the clip once or twice during the process (shut power OFF!) produces an even color throughout.

Basically, I can only reliably produce gold and a range of blues, and working on anything with another metal fitting (like my Ti Police or mini-Police necklace) is out, but I'm able to do some anodizing now and all I had to buy was the diet Coke. Awesome! Thanks, Mr. Tichebourne, Mr. Ralph, Chiro, and all the others who gave me info.

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-Drew Gleason
Little Bear Knives
 
The Coke worked fine, the colors are a little hard to tell till the things really dry out, I did a nice gold that turned out to be a bright purple, and I did a nice purple that turned out to be a nice blue...
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Does anybody have any tips on how to know what color you have before it dries?? a rough estimate??

Alan...
 
This diet coke thing has me puzzled!! Plus I have about 4 more, 2litre bottles of this stuff and it tastes like *&$%@ !
The way I am doing my anodizing, I have to see what's happening under the surface of the liquid that I am anodizing in!!!! How can you guys tell what's going on using Diet Coke!!
Don't take this the wrong way, I gave it a try, but I might as well be blindfolded!!!
 
I've just been setting my voltage, running the current for about 5 minutes, then shutting it down and taking the piece out, wiping it off, and looking at it. I established the "spectrum" my Marking Methods DC source could produce by repeating this process for each of its ten possible settings, in order from lowest to highest voltage. Now that I know the color each produces, I just dial it up. The oxidation only forms to a given color for each voltage - there's no need to watch it and stop it at a certain point. Seeing the process would be cool, but there's no real need for it.

-Drew
 
This is what makes knifemaking fun! With my power supply, if I am trying to do gold, I have the voltage I use. I have a digital volt meter hooked up to the system so I dont go by the dial. As I dip the piece in, the voltage changes a little so I compensate using the dial. I have to watch the process because if I leave it in too long the gold will start to turn light blue around the edges!!!!
I would like to try sprite or 7up, That way if it doesn't work at least I can drink it.
I have an electrical engineer that I work with that claims for about $5.00 he can change the Bridge Rectifier in my supply and it will do something.....Magical! Or at least improve the way my system works!I will let you all know how this works.
 
Just wondering, when you use diet coke, (or sprite) do you let it go flat first? It seems that if it was carbonated, the bubbles would interfere with the pattern. Or am I just stating the obvious?
 
It goes flat by itself with about 100 volts running throught it...
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I tried the coke and it worked fine, I just dip my peices, put the clip on the other end and get what I couldnt get on the first step...

So if you have to see what its doing, just use a TSP solution, I cant see why it maters because the color changes so much when it dries.....

This thing is sorta fun, I dunno if there will be a plain peice of titanium left in my house after this weekend..
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Tonight I am trying the brush anodization, where you use a brush with the electrode hooked up to the metal ferrule where the bristles are crimped in...

should be interesting...

Alan...
 
Dr. Lathe is right, this sure is a hell of a lot of fun.

I'm looking forward to trying the Diet Coke next week whe I get back to work where my "stuff" is. I started my first experiments on pieces cut off an old titanium handlebar that I bent in a mountain bike crash. Jumped right into my Sebenza after that. What the heck, I could always have re-blasted it if it didn't turn out right.

Doc L, let us know what the EE's "magic" trick is an how it works for ya, and Alan, please let us know about the brush anodizing. I've been thinking about this while helping a friend who was making jewelry and was considering titanium if I was willing to anodize it for him. I first heard about the brush anodizing when a gal that used to work for Merlin mountain bikes named Leni Fried started "decorating" some of the frames for customers. Seeing as I have a titanium GT with a ti seatpost and handlebar, I'm a bit, um, curious.
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Don LeHue

The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.


 
Hey, Don, I know that Merlin does not endorse warranty on their frames that have been anodized as they feel this makes the surface brittle enough to induce premature cracking. You could probably make that GT wicked-looking, but if you are a hard rider you may want to think against it...
For everyone else, now that we are on the subject of titanium, anyone have a piece that is an inch diameter by an inch long? I need a piece about that size for Dr. Lathe to machine my wedding band for me!
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Doc, BTW, how did those stainless versions come out?

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My Custom Kydex Sheath pagehttp://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Lab/1298/knifehome.html
Palmer College of Chiropractic
On Two Wheels
 
The prototypes are the right size, got the comfort fit bevel inside and they are shiny....In the mail tomorow!!
My power supply is having a malfunction. The EE guy at work is from India and very hard to communicate with. He used to work for a plating company and knows what I am trying to do. My supply is not holding the voltage steady, he said it is ploating (floating). Anyway, he's going to fix it this weekend. He said something about putting in a better Bridge Rectifier than the one that's in there.
You guys are talking about anodizing a mountain bike frame???? I have plenty of diet coke left over that I can donate!!!!!
Anodizing has become one of my favorite parts of knife making. It's usually about the last thing you do when the kife is done and it's calming, (when it works right) like watching an aquarium. I am saving all my Ti and stabilized wood scrap for jewelry!!!
 
Chiro, yeah, I heard about Merlin's warranty issues, and was mostly joking about the Xizang. It's one of those things that every now and then, I look at it and wonder what if...

Also, Chiro, who's your buddy, who's your pal? Who is holding in his grubby mitt a CP ti bolt, 0.933' across the flats, 0.534" I.D., and 0.550" thick (thinking fractions right now hurts my brain, I'm afraid you'll have to convert them yourself) that I would be happily willing to donate for your wedding band. I placed my Ti wedding band on top of it (0.865" O.D. and 0.743" I.D. - I normally wear and 8-1/4 to 8-1/2 ring size) and if Doc L is willing to give it a shot, you can see what he can whittle out of it. While you might want to hold out for a raw, solid chunk, or a piece of 3/2.5 or 6/4, it's yours for your special occaision if you wish. While I also have a more dressy white/yellow gold band for nicer occaisions, I personally love my own ti wedding band. It's rugged, takes a beating while showing much fewer visible signs of abuse, and it has a cool chi-chi or Gucci factor among my close friends and others that know me. Others may not "get it", but hey, that's their problem. Lemme know if this will work for you and if you think that Doc L can work with it, depending if your ring size would be compatible with the dimensions given above, and it's on its way. Either of you can contact me direct or here in this thread.

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Don LeHue

The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.


 
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