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Titanium frame/liner locks wear
- Thread starter huugh
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2004
- Messages
- 12,957
Titanium and stainless can both indent. I've seen it quite a bit in my shop on knives that work for a living. Titanium seems to be the most frequently seen though. Even the steel stop pins can show signs of wear and sometimes it is simply a matter of turning the pin so the blade is hitting on a different surface than it used to to correct some minor blade movement.
Generally stainless being denser, and harder will wear better at the contact area on the integral type locks you ask about though. Frame locks seem to fair much better than liner locks in either steel though. Mosty due to the surface area difference contacting the blade at the interface but also anodizing or heat treating the lock can add some near ceramic like oxide layer to the locks of titanium that allows it to wear better. That will in time scratch off though. Personally I have not seen a lot of benefit from the anodized layer theory but some swear by it.
I've seen in my shop many Emerson as well as BenchMade tianium locks and even Spyderco and Kabar locks that are stainless most of the time with indent marks very distinctly prominent on the locks. After a certain time it may become necessary to adjust the locks on these knives due to travel too far across the blade. When the locks get all the way across to where they enter into the space between the handle and the blade its time for an adjustment. Usually this can be done on both types of metal locks. The liner locks and frame locks of stainless are generally heat treated to around 45 on the Rockwell scale. Titanium is not that hard so both can be adjusted the same way.
As I've stated before there are many schools of thought on the proper way to work on as well as make these type locks. You will get differing answers from different makers on most any question you come up with so I'm just stating what I do, what has worked and how I see it based on my experiences.
On frame locks I rarely have to make adjustments with one exception. The ones that barely come out to engage the blade give people trouble. Many times the adjustment on these is to simply make it so more lock gets behind the blade. Like Chris Reeves I believe between 60 and 75% is the correct amount but I've seen many with 100% that work for a very long time also. If you own one with less it will indent about as easy as a typical thin liner locking knife that allows vertical movement sometimes. When this happens allowing the lock to travel in past that indent is usually all it takes to alleviate the vertical play.
In my shop when I get a liner locking knife that the lock is traveling all the way across the interface on I take the knife apart and lay the parts all aside making sure that each screw is put back down beside the hole it came out of and each barrel also. This is not always necessary with production folders but it is many times with hand made knives as these pins and screws are often times 'location specific' for the knife. So as a habit I do them all the same way regardless of production or custom.
On stainless or titanium you can use a flat end round 3/32 punch and a good hammer to adjust the lock. It is not for the inexperienced though. It takes practice and experience to know how hard and where to hit the lock to compress it in approximately 1mm from the edge of the lock face and above the detent ball. You do this on the inside of the knife obviously with the detent ball staring up at you. Usually on the titanium locks I heat them up to glowing red before hand and then whack the punch. What this does on either lock face is squish by compressing down and moving a small amount of metal back out toward the interface where it contacts the blade when you open and close the knife. It usually is done in one quick whack these days when I do it but I've done it hundreds of times. I caution anyone reading this and trying it on the lock without first practicing on titanium scraps or hard stainless scraps. It is possible to crack the lock if you get carried away with that hammer. Be warned. If you do not have the ability to remake that lock don't try it at home so to speak.
Rarely do I do this repair on stainless by the way. It is most always something that is needed on thinner titanium liner locks from .060 thickness or less.
STR
Generally stainless being denser, and harder will wear better at the contact area on the integral type locks you ask about though. Frame locks seem to fair much better than liner locks in either steel though. Mosty due to the surface area difference contacting the blade at the interface but also anodizing or heat treating the lock can add some near ceramic like oxide layer to the locks of titanium that allows it to wear better. That will in time scratch off though. Personally I have not seen a lot of benefit from the anodized layer theory but some swear by it.
I've seen in my shop many Emerson as well as BenchMade tianium locks and even Spyderco and Kabar locks that are stainless most of the time with indent marks very distinctly prominent on the locks. After a certain time it may become necessary to adjust the locks on these knives due to travel too far across the blade. When the locks get all the way across to where they enter into the space between the handle and the blade its time for an adjustment. Usually this can be done on both types of metal locks. The liner locks and frame locks of stainless are generally heat treated to around 45 on the Rockwell scale. Titanium is not that hard so both can be adjusted the same way.
As I've stated before there are many schools of thought on the proper way to work on as well as make these type locks. You will get differing answers from different makers on most any question you come up with so I'm just stating what I do, what has worked and how I see it based on my experiences.
On frame locks I rarely have to make adjustments with one exception. The ones that barely come out to engage the blade give people trouble. Many times the adjustment on these is to simply make it so more lock gets behind the blade. Like Chris Reeves I believe between 60 and 75% is the correct amount but I've seen many with 100% that work for a very long time also. If you own one with less it will indent about as easy as a typical thin liner locking knife that allows vertical movement sometimes. When this happens allowing the lock to travel in past that indent is usually all it takes to alleviate the vertical play.
In my shop when I get a liner locking knife that the lock is traveling all the way across the interface on I take the knife apart and lay the parts all aside making sure that each screw is put back down beside the hole it came out of and each barrel also. This is not always necessary with production folders but it is many times with hand made knives as these pins and screws are often times 'location specific' for the knife. So as a habit I do them all the same way regardless of production or custom.
On stainless or titanium you can use a flat end round 3/32 punch and a good hammer to adjust the lock. It is not for the inexperienced though. It takes practice and experience to know how hard and where to hit the lock to compress it in approximately 1mm from the edge of the lock face and above the detent ball. You do this on the inside of the knife obviously with the detent ball staring up at you. Usually on the titanium locks I heat them up to glowing red before hand and then whack the punch. What this does on either lock face is squish by compressing down and moving a small amount of metal back out toward the interface where it contacts the blade when you open and close the knife. It usually is done in one quick whack these days when I do it but I've done it hundreds of times. I caution anyone reading this and trying it on the lock without first practicing on titanium scraps or hard stainless scraps. It is possible to crack the lock if you get carried away with that hammer. Be warned. If you do not have the ability to remake that lock don't try it at home so to speak.
Rarely do I do this repair on stainless by the way. It is most always something that is needed on thinner titanium liner locks from .060 thickness or less.
STR
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2004
- Messages
- 12,957
This is sometimes an available option and a very good question. However many knives are made to such close tolerances that you have to look at the knife to determine if a larger stop pin can be placed in it. It is not so much an issue with just the pin itself many times. Many of these modern knives are now sporting screwed down stop pins so you have to look at the head size of the screw too to make an assesment as to if it will work or not. For example you may be able to go from a 1/8" pin to a 9/64 size pin quite easily if its just a matter of drilling out a new hole and placing a replacement pin that is not the threaded barrel type stop. But if the stop is a threaded barrel type you have now gone from a 5/32 screw head to a 11/64 or a 3/16 you may have an overhang of the screw head off the body of the folder. Most 5/32 barrels have an 11/64 screw head. 3/16 barrels have a 1/4" head and so on.
The stop pin option is perhaps the first thing to look at before doing a lock adjustment. This stop pin change can be troublesome either way though, particularly if the stop contact area on the blade has a recess cut out so it form fits around the current stop pin or if the blade is blackened. It can also be a bit troublesome if say you just moved up to a 9/64 pin from a previous 1/8 pin and you took off too much metal from the stop area of the blade to make the new pin so the lock would work correctly leaving you right back where you started with vertical blade play.
I usually try to shy away from messing with the interface area on the blades I work on other than my own due to how sensitive that area is to being set at the correct angle for the lock to work as it should, not to forget the fact that if you take off too much there its real trouble all around.
I guess what I'm saying in a rather lengthy way is that its a case by case thing really as to whether the stop pin replacement option is best. It may require far more lock adjusting and/or tweaking to several key areas of the folder to move up in stop pin size than what was described in my previous post. Time wise the stop pin replacement is certainly going to cost more if you look at it from that stand point because that is a lot more tweaking.
Generallly speaking for most makers I think, what I covered in my first post is faster, easier, and better all around. I've spoken with some makers that use a punch on their locks to compress them making them denser and more resistant to wear. They do this during the building of the knife. There may be some some truth to this concept. Part of the reason stainless wears better is due first to its hardness advantage over titanium but stainless is also the denser metal of the two so if you can compact the metal at the contact area of the lock it may indeed make it wear better.
Usually the second thing to check if a new pin can be put in the knife is to also look at whats available to you to purchase in the way of threaded barrels to act as your stop to replace the old one and what size diameter the head of the new screw on that new barrel is. You can buy 1/8" barrels threaded for 2/56 screws and 3/16" barrels for 2/56 screws also, although they are harder to find so sometimes this can work for you without even changing the screws but if jumping from that 1/8 to a 3/16 pin is not possible due to the pin being too large to fit in the knife without compromising strength or the screw being too large it can only be adjusted one other way short of rebuilding the whole lock.
Finally, (I hope) I've never seen odd size threaded barrels for sale from knife suppliers in 7/64, 9/64, 11/64 or even 5/32. But you see these sizes on production folders all the time. Being conservative minded I would naturally want to move up the very next size and not skip two or three but this is not always a viable option. All you usually see is 1/8, 3/16 or 1/4" barrels from the suppliers. So if the stop pin is screwed down you have less choices.
Spyderco uses 5/32 barrels with an 11/64 screw on many of their knives but where they get them is not something I am privy to. I wish I knew because many times I could use them. These are great little barrels and I wish I had a bin full of them in my shop. I really like it when customers let me keep spare parts but many times they want them returned with the knives so its often times a matter of what is available to me to work with.
The knife in my signiture that I rebuilt for a customer is such a knife from Spyderco. Imagine going from that 5/32 pin with the 11/64 screw head in the body of the folder (located right above the pocket clip)to a 3/16 barrel with a 1/4" screw head. The screw head would either be right at or be hanging over the edge of the handle scale of the knife, which needless to say is not a good thing.
STR
EDITED for additional details.
My most-used folder is an older Spyderco 440V Military (6 or 7 years old). It hasn't been babied at all, and the blade has been forcefully popped open a lot.
Function is as-new. The locking arm was at the first 1/3 of the locking arc when new - it's about to reach the middle of the locking arc.
I couldn't be more pleased with the liner-lock of this Military.
Function is as-new. The locking arm was at the first 1/3 of the locking arc when new - it's about to reach the middle of the locking arc.
I couldn't be more pleased with the liner-lock of this Military.