to microbevel or not........

bkkd · Feb 10, 2007

heya all i have a new endura wave and before long im going to have to touch it up, but i dont have a sharpmaker yet....

what i do have is the crock stick type of sharpeners, which are set at a 20 and 25 degree edge angle.

would it be wise to put a 40 degree inclusive angle backbevel with the 20 degree side or just wait for the sharpmaker to match the original grind as close as i can?

this thing is sharp and i wanna keep it that way lol.

thanks for the help.

gunmike1 · Feb 10, 2007

The Endura Wave is probably at 15 per side from the factory, as that is what Spyderco shoots for, and what mine was at until I sharpened it flat to the stone to thin it out. I recommend microbevelling at 40 inclusive on that knife, even when you get the Sharpmaker, if you aren't going to reprofile the edge thinner than 15 per side (which is my personal preference, and I microbevel at 15 per side, though some have had to use a 17 per side microbevel on their VG-10 due to chipping). Microbevel sharpening is the only way to go in my mind, it makes sharpening so quick and easy since you are only sharpening such a tiny strip of steel instead of the whole bevel. Once it starts taking more time to set the microbevel (due to it thickening), usually after a few months, depending on how much you use the knife, you have to reset the edge at the original backbevel angle. Sal Glesser discusses this in the Sharpmaker video.

StretchNM · Feb 11, 2007

All the Sharpmaker has is 15 and 20 degrees, but that's certainly better than 20 and 25. You could modify it of course. It's good....I like it.

clmayfield · Feb 11, 2007

gunmike1 said:
I recommend microbevelling at 40 inclusive on that knife, even when you get the Sharpmaker, if you aren't going to reprofile the edge thinner than 15 per side (which is my personal preference, and I microbevel at 15 per side, though some have had to use a 17 per side microbevel on their VG-10 due to chipping).

I thought that too steep of a primary bevel causes chipping problems... you say it is the micro-bevel that causes chipping? Anyone else have opinions on this?

I have a VG-10 set to 15 degrees per side, no micro-bevel, but I was considering taking it to 10 or 12 degrees per side and putting on a 15 degree micro-bevel. The hardness is RC 62 or so, I think, so I should be good. I was hesitant about taking the primary bevel down to 10 degrees, but if that is not what causes chipping, sounds like I don't have to worry about it. I have no problems at 15 degrees... that is the factory setting.

db · Feb 11, 2007

It does depend on the knife and type of cutting you do with it. But, I think thinning to 10 degrees per side with a 15 degree micro shouldn't be a problem since you aren't seeing a problem at a straight 15 degree edge now.

Jeff Clark · Feb 11, 2007

20 degrees per side is too obtuse, you want 15 degrees or lower. If your sharpener base is flat on the bottom you can lay a pencil cross-wise under the base and tilt the sharpener left and right as you work. That should take 3 or 4 degrees off your sharpening angle.

gunmike1 · Feb 11, 2007

clmayfield said:
I thought that too steep of a primary bevel causes chipping problems... you say it is the micro-bevel that causes chipping? Anyone else have opinions on this?

I have a VG-10 set to 15 degrees per side, no micro-bevel, but I was considering taking it to 10 or 12 degrees per side and putting on a 15 degree micro-bevel. The hardness is RC 62 or so, I think, so I should be good. I was hesitant about taking the primary bevel down to 10 degrees, but if that is not what causes chipping, sounds like I don't have to worry about it. I have no problems at 15 degrees... that is the factory setting.

I personally go with 8-12 degrees primary angle with a 15 degree microbevel with my Spyderco VG-10 blades, with no chipping issues. The microbevel can make a huge difference in whether or not you see chipping in reports I have read from others, as it is just the very edge that actually makes the cut, but harder/twisting/deeper cuts can bring the primary much more into play (I am using REALLY thin knives in other steels at angles like 5/15, with high hollow grinds, and twisting can cause big chips). I personally haven't had chipping problems from normal cutting with a 15 degree microbevel, except with metal, or my original Native edge, which chipped until it was sharpened a few times (The angle wouldn't matter in the case of the Native, that was just the steel acting up).

My Spyderco Manix, which is my HD folder, is at 10/15, so I definately agree with Jeff Clark that 20 degrees is too obtuse for a microbevel on VG-10 (or most any other steel for that matter). I was thinking of the newbie factor when I said 20 degree microbevel (and added to use that if he doesn't reprofile), as at 15 he may not be hitting the whole edge, as sometimes Spydercos are slightly over 15 with the factory angle, thus making 15 degree sharpmaker touch ups take a real long time. The other setting is 20, so I suggested it. As I said in the my original post reprofiling to a much thinner angle is my suggestion, as it greatly increases cutting ability and edge retention, not to mention ease of sharpening. And, I have used Jeff's suggestions in the past for using pencils or rods under the sharpmaker base to alter the angle, and they work great. For instance, a rod under the center of the base gives you a 10 degree angle, which I verified by trigonometry after reprofiling my Endura 3 with the sharpmaker diamond rods, just as Jeff Clark said it would. I listen to everything Jeff says with interest, as he is one of the best sharpeners in the world, and his deburring techniques and sharpmaker tilting techniques greatly helped me to increase my sharpness and I always learn something new it seems every time he posts.

Dog of War · Feb 12, 2007

My experience with Spyderco VG10 has been that a 15 deg/side microbevel could be a bit too acute for some work. I would estimate that around 17 deg/side is kind of an edge stability threshold, cutting heavy cardboard you see under magnification some very minor microchipping at this angle, however I haven't found it to be to an extent that noticeably hurts sharpness in tests such as pushcutting newsprint.

For general utility and EDC use with a VG10 blade I now sharpen the primary at 12 deg/side, add a 17 deg microbevel, and then finish with a few very light passes at 20 deg/side. If the width of the microbevel is kept very small I can't detect any loss in cutting performance, and I think I've read that Cliff has found the same thing. Even this very minimal microbevel can increase edge retention significantly, and in utility use can help limit damage when contacting hard objects or unexpected nasties in things you're cutting.

The angle on CrockSticks sharpeners can easily be adjusted by rotating the base .... i.e. rather than the blade being perpendicular to the base when you look down on them, the knife is now at an angle either left or right to the base. I have marks drawn on my workbench so I can easily align an old CrockSticks I have in which the holes are drilled for about 22 deg/side, so that I can microbevel at 20 degs. 17 degs., 15 degs. and 10 degs. per side (or really anything if I want to.)