To Water or Diamond? That is the question.

U

uberjer

Joined
Sep 25, 2010
Messages
4
Hi,


I'm totally new to the knife world. I read a detailed article on knife metals, another on sharpening and maintenance, and a bunch of forum posts here. I was about to buy the edge pro system, but I think I'd have more fun learning to hand sharpen.

My primary use will be in maintaining outdoor pocket and survival knives. I also want to be able to play around with and maintain my kitchen knives.

I'm considering either the Norton Water Stone Kit or the DMT Duosharp Plus Diamond Kit.

I'm not sure which I should go with. Diamond seems to be the way to go, but I saw something about the interrupted surface being a problem for sharpening smaller blades or blades with a fine tip (or something like that).

This is the water stone kit I was looking at: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Water-Stone-Kit-P94C18.aspx

This is the diamond kit I was looking at: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-Duosharp-Plus-Diamond-Kit-P248C3.aspx

I want to keep it under $150. What are your thoughts? Should I go with water or diamond or something I don't even know about?


Jeremy
 
Most of the folks on the forum are probably going to recommend the diamonds. Waterstones are great, but seem to have a longer learning curve (not that diamonds are going to be mastered very quickly either). For getting started on hand sharpening using bench stones, I'd recommend a Norton combo aluminum oxide (India) stone. You could follow that up with any number of finer stones for a more polished edge (I really have come to like my Arkansas stones - hair whittling straight off a stone, no stropping required), and on to a strop if so desired. But for learning the basics, you'd be hard pressed to find a better tool than the basic Norton combo stone and a couple of cheap knives. Once you get your technique down, then start shelling out the larger dollars for "nicer" stones.
 
Yeah, that'll do ya. Some people use them dry, there are plenty of others that still use oil with them. The only stone lube I use anymore is dish soap and water. I put a few drops on the stone and work it in with a few drops of water. As it dries out I add a few drops of water and some lather by lightly squeezing a soapy sponge over the stone. There's no need for any waterfalls. If you need it to cut faster, use less soap in the mix. As you come down to refining the edge, use more soap. You could spend tons more money and not get any better results to start. As you get better, that stone can still do all the initial grinds that will be required before you move up to a highly polished edge (should you feel the need). It could very well be the only stone you'll ever need. They will need to be lapped from time to time, but that can be done with sandpaper, water, and a nice flat surface. Like I mentioned before, I'm tending to favor my Arkansas stones recently, but own and have used waterstones, diamonds, steels, crock sticks, strops from various materials and compounds. You can go hog wild after you get good technique, but in the end, the combo India stone will put an edge capable of cleanly shaving the hair off your arm - that's plenty good for most camping/pocket knives.

This is just my opinion, hopefully some other members will chime in with their 2 cents.

A final word of advice though, I deep-six'd a number of very nice knives learning how to get good results by hand, don't start off with any quality hardware till you feel good and capable...
 
I recommend learning to sharpen on a cinder block. Then move on to more expensive stones. Free hand sharpening has more to do with skill than the stones you choose to use.
 
Thanks for the great advice! It looks like these stones come presoaked with oil. You think it'll be okay to do the soap and water thing still?

I just got a Leatherman Charge TTi and a Becker BK7. I won't be touching those blades for quite a while. I got a bunch of junk knives to play with, both the outdoor types and kitchen types. I'm wondering if it's possible to put a decent edge on an old IKEA knife I have. I know it won't hold, but it'll be good practice. :)
 
It can be hard to remove oil from a stone. You could try running them through a dishwasher. I prefer diamond hones these days. Many alloys are difficult to get optimally sharp without them. I don't like the diamond hones with the grit clustered in spots. It doesn't give you as smooth a finish. I prefer the DMT dia-sharp line hones with continuous diamonds. For a starter you could try the 6-inch double-sided with fine grit on one side and extra-fine on the other. A fine diamond hone cuts relatively fast and works for most blades that aren't totally wrecked. The extra-fine leaves a very good finish edge for most purposes. You can sharpen any alloy with these and get great edges.
 
A super beginner's set would be a 3x8" Extra Coarse Diashrp and a King 1k6k combo stone from Japanese Woodworker. Now that may be all the stones you'll ever need. :D
 
uberjer said:
Thanks for the great advice! It looks like these stones come presoaked with oil. You think it'll be okay to do the soap and water thing still?

I just got a Leatherman Charge TTi and a Becker BK7. I won't be touching those blades for quite a while. I got a bunch of junk knives to play with, both the outdoor types and kitchen types. I'm wondering if it's possible to put a decent edge on an old IKEA knife I have. I know it won't hold, but it'll be good practice. :)
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The soap will thin the water out, they'll spread out over the stone and do what a stone lube needs to do, namely keep metal from clogging the stone and reduce the friction a little so you get a smaller burr and a smoother pass over the stone. Keep in mind, you will need to lapp the stone from time to time anyway or even with the best practices it'll slowly loose its effectiveness. There's nothing wrong with using the oil, but it can be a bit messy compared to soap or using the stone dry.

I recommend learning to sharpen on a cinder block. Then move on to more expensive stones. Free hand sharpening has more to do with skill than the stones you choose to use.
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This is not bad advice. Another option is to glue sandpaper to a block of wood and practice with a flat piece of aluminum or even a hardwood shim. When it comes to hand sharpening on a bench stone, it all comes down to a few basics. Once perfected the same mechanics get applied to any stone you wind up using, the only difference being slight changes of angle to produce primary/secondary bevels etc. Always sharpen standing up and with the stone at a comfortable height. It also helps if its quiet enough to hear the steel on stone. Good lighting is a must as well.
 
I have the exact same thing...the DMT kit...bought from the same place. Very high quality product and the folks there are great to deal with.

Diamond sharpening has many, many advantages. One does have to "unlearn" the habit of pressing down too hard. It really is just like they say, "let the diamonds do the work". The cut fast so practice on a cheap knife which also serves to break in the stones...they benefit from a little of that. I firmly believe that a well made, "densely populated" set of diamond stones, like these, will probably grind all your knives down to a sliver and still keep sharpening.

So I love mine and it makes the process of freehanding much easier.

I have never tried a proper waterstone at all but I know they too have many advantages...of which I cannot speak. That is, after all, how they make samurai swords!
 
There are a lot of right ways to sharpen, and very few wrong ways (so long as they provide the results you like).

Water stones, oil stones, diamonds, etc. I think there is a fair amount of personal preference here, I will give you mine and some rationale...you decide what you like and go from there.

I like continuous surface diamonds. These can be used wet or dry and you can switch back and forth between wet and dry at your whim which is nice if you are away from a source of water, or just want to do a really quick touch up without getting out a bunch of other stuff.

Oils can be messy, and generally need a dedicated work space as do water stones (perhaps not a totally dedicated space, but many wives would balk at the idea of their husbands setting up oil stones, or a tub of water in the living room so they can sharpen as they listen/watch TV. Just a thought...I like to be able to set up in the back yard as my kids play, or at the dining room table with discovery channel on in the next room.

Diamonds also will cut quickly and easily. Other quality abrasives will also do a fantastic job, but nothing I have used personally works as fast as diamonds. I also like that diamonds require no lapping or flattening. They are flat from the factory and always will be unless you do something really wrong. I wash mine with a nylon brush and soapy water once in a while...other than that, I do nothing other than store them in an impact resistant case.

Regarding quality of results...I think there are perhaps a handful of people in the world (if that many) that have the skills and abilities needed to sharpen well enough to experience the limitations of either water stones or diamonds (so long as we compare the best examples/offerings of each)...said another way, your personal preference and enjoyment is WAY WAY more important IMO than the differences in sharpness that either will provide...because both are capable of producing an edge so fine that no steel can support it beyond a single cut (see discussions of whittling hair elsewhere on this forum).
 
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I would also like to recommend continuous diamond stones for sharpening. I have the DMT Duosharp Plus kit as well, and I've found the holes to be more trouble than they're worth(not that hard to keep a cup of water nearby to wet the stones every now and then).

Japanese waterstones have a steeper learning curve, as you have to learn how to make the slurry(not that difficult), how to keep the slurry on the stone while sharpening, how to avoid gouging the stone, keeping the stone regularly wet, and soaking the stones long enough but not TOO long or the stone dissolves into the water(the ones with magnesium salts). To make an analogy, using Japanese waterstones is like using bows and arrows when there are perfectly good firearms. You do it more for the culture and the manual labor of it than anything else.
 
Uber, Welcome . Glad your attempting this . Have some patience . I agree with most here; heavyhand, is correct a Norton coarse/fine India or crystolon (grey) is a good route to start on . I have a complete set of diamond stones and I still use my Norton India C/F stone a lot and I've not needed to rebevel it in 20yrs.. The diamond stones are a step up but I recommend a coarse and fine stones to began with . I use my coarse stone a lot more than the fine . Enjoy, the journey and let us know how it goes . DM
 
Noctis3880 said:
To make an analogy, using Japanese waterstones is like using bows and arrows when there are perfectly good firearms. You do it more for the culture and the manual labor of it than anything else.
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very bad analogy.
i've yet to see a diamond plate that rivals the level of polish and edge quality you can get from high grit, high quality synthetic or natural waterstone period. and EEF isn't the answer i have to strop for a while an EEF edge to get a quality comparable to a crisp 10k edge.

what is true is that it took years for me to know what a crisp 10k edge is.
 
Water or diamond? is a good question but first you must look at the steels you plan to sharpen and the level of finish you want to have. It is true that a high grit diamond plate will never match a high water stone in finish but the finish is not everything. A EEF DMT diamond plate will leave a finish like a 3k water stone with a 8k polish and edge sharpness, and even sharper if the aligner clamp is used. Diamonds are best on high hardness steels and high wear resistant steels and though they work well on nearly everything they have their place like all other stones.

If you have mainly carbon and carbon alloy steels then your best choice is most likely water stones as they will produce a vastly better edge than most any other stone.

Some steels are simply picky of what they like to be sharpened on and others can be sharpened on several types of media and you could hardly tell the difference. ZDP-189 is one of those steels, though I really like how ZDP sharpenes on water stones I can also get premium results with the diamond stones, or a belt sander, or sandpaper, or.............. So in the case of that steel it really does not matter. There are other steels however that will not be so forgiving of the abrasive used and your edge quality and finish will suffer.

So if you sharpen mainly modern alloys in folders for daily use diamond stones would probably be most practical. If you have mainly fixed blades of carbon steels and average stainless steels water stones would be more ideal for the steels. and if your like me you will need both :D
 
Thanks all for your help and guidance. I decided to just get an India combo stone to start.

The DMT Duosharp was within budget, but the continuous surface isn't. I'll pick those up after I get the basics down.

Knifenut, I was looking at some of your work. Scary edges is all I can say. I'd love to be able to sharpen like that some day. :)
 
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