Todd Begg Tree Frog @ $200, and Kershaw is the ripoff at $20?

[chucknduck]

While looking through some of the new items at seberal of the usual online dealers today, I came across the previously mentioned Todd Begg Tree Frog. A tiny, non-handled metal slab of N690. Comes with a matching little kydex sheath on paracord lanyard. Available in several colors of cerakote. For the sum of.... gulp.... $175 to $200! 2 inches of machined N690. No moving parts, no fitting, no scales. Not even a stonewashed or hand rubbed satin finish.

A little later on I happen to read the thread on the Kershaw Meridian and many argued on what a ripoff it is @ $20 with 3cr13 blade steel. Now, you can make the usual arguments like "USA made" or "premium materials" or "limited production" all you want, but I would bet you that regardless of country of origin, much more time goes into producing that $20 Kershaw than goes into making that "mid-tech" neck knife. I dont think even the biggest Todd Begg fan could argue that. N690 is by no means a cheap material, it certainly isn't up there price-wise with the likes of ZDP 189, M390, S90V, etc etc.

So, the point of this thread is, if we demand so much "bang for our buck" with the cheaper imported knives; is it not also fair to be critical of smaller, stateside companies to offer products at a fair price instead of charging outrageous prices for products because they can? Obviously we can all vote with our wallets but we are also aware more than a few people are willing to pay whatever prices being asked to own a Todd Begg knife. Imho, if the community is going to lambast Kershaw for profiting off a $20 folding knife, then why isn't there the same outcry by the same people willing to criticize a VERY simple $200 Begg neck knife?

 

[RedLynx]

How do you handle this Begg knife if it has no handles? I hope you aren't expected to just hold onto the paracord lanyard...

Anyway I'm not really into custom makers or limited runs so I've no dog in this fight, and the knife doesn't sound like something I'd buy even if it, too, was $20, just not my style. But it was an interesting read.

Also perhaps the issue is this is a (I assume small) custom maker that perhaps fairly few know about in comparison to KAI Corp. Could be wrong though, not sure how many know about this maker... I've never heard of him but that isn't saying much.

 

[9blades]

How do you handle this Begg knife if it has no handles? I hope you aren't expected to just hold onto the paracord lanyard...

Anyway I'm not really into custom makers or limited runs so I've no dog in this fight, and the knife doesn't sound like something I'd buy even if it, too, was $20, just not my style. But it was an interesting read.

Also perhaps the issue is this is a (I assume small) custom maker that perhaps fairly few no about in comparison to KAI Corp. Could be wrong though, not sure how many know about this maker... I've never heard of him but that isn't saying much.

I don't have any coherent thoughts about the actual topic of pricing...but I can say that Todd Beggs is one of the biggest custom makers out there.

 

[RedLynx]

I don't have any coherent thoughts about the actual topic of pricing...but I can say that Todd Beggs is one of the biggest custom makers out there.

Good to know. Like I say, no real interest in custom stuff so aside from the custom makers who have also worked on production knives (and maybe Beggs has too) I likely won't know the name. Although I see some cool photos pass through here from time to time.

 

[Hairlesstwinkie]

Begg is one of those few popular custom makers whom I won't spend a dime on. I just think his prices are just too unreasonable for stuff done by people of his shop and not the man himself. The FG Bodega was one of the worst triple digit knives I've ever had. Luckily it was a loan from a buddy. I've wanted a Bodega for the longest time until then. I saved myself $800. I just think there are other makers who are as good if not better for the money.

 

[Shorttime]

At the risk of being flamed....

I don't pretend to be a knifemaker, but I have taken a few (maybe four) through the full process, from pattern on paper to finished knife.

By the time you add cost of materials and other stuff that has to be done right, like heat treating, the cost of finishing a single knife is somewhere in the area of sixty to one hundred dollars. It depends on how thick the stock is, what kind of handle material you use, and so on.

So, for a one-off, $175 is pretty reasonable.

Now, Todd Begg is a top-shelf maker, with the ability to realize some economy of scale by using his own heat-treating ovens, and his helpers. So his cost per piece is not as high as if it was one guy making each of these.

So, let's say that the cost per piece, out the door of Begg's shop, is fifty dollars, and let's use the high end price of two hundred dollars. That works out to a twenty-five percent markup.

A twenty five percent markup is not bad.

I'm not saying that there isn't a "halo effect" associated with some makers' names, but that seems to be mostly on the aftermarket. I understand that one seventy five to two hundred seems like a lot for something so simple... but it's not outrageous, either.

 

[Moxy]

The whole knife enthusiast community is driven by wants rather than needs.
Budget Kershaw knives are NOT tailored to the wants of a knife enthusiast. They are made for the average Joe browsing through his local outdoorsman shop.
Begg is a Custom maker and his products are ONLY tailored to the wants of a knife enthusiast. Average Joe is completely oblivious to the ins and outs of what goes into making a custom knife, and he's repulsed by the idea of spending anymore than $$ on any pocket knife.

This forum is full of enthusiests, not average Joes.

That being said, I'm not at all interested in custom knives and I thought the same thing when I Begg's froggy knife. His inflated reputation drives up demand, thus that drives his prices up.

 

[DAVE_M]

The best discussion, I've ever had, was with an old man at a swap meet. I felt that his price was high and he disagreed. He said, "Let me tell you about 'needs and wants,' boy. You may want this, but you don't need it. If you need it, you'll pay my price." I completely agreed with him, then.

Todd Begg custom knives are not the same as a Kershaw budget knife. It's all about needs and wants.

 

[Scurvy092]

Todd Begg does not touch these knives. They are made in his small batch production facility. Just to be clear.

I have two custom fixed blade neck knives.

One is a Gary wheeler with blasted carbon fiber scales. The other is a Ver Steeg Imp that is a polished hand ground convex edge with carbon fiber scales. Both have kydex sheaths. They cost me $125 and $70 respectively.

If you want a good custom neck knife, they are out there and easy to find and acquire under $200. If you want to own a knife that says Begg Designs on it because you love his customs and wished his TV show was still on, then this is the cheapest knife you can that actually comes out of his facility.

 

[Scurvy092]

This is what your 175-200 gets you:

 

[Kletsou]

At the risk of being flamed....

I don't pretend to be a knifemaker, but I have taken a few (maybe four) through the full process, from pattern on paper to finished knife.

By the time you add cost of materials and other stuff that has to be done right, like heat treating, the cost of finishing a single knife is somewhere in the area of sixty to one hundred dollars. It depends on how thick the stock is, what kind of handle material you use, and so on.

So, for a one-off, $175 is pretty reasonable.

Now, Todd Begg is a top-shelf maker, with the ability to realize some economy of scale by using his own heat-treating ovens, and his helpers. So his cost per piece is not as high as if it was one guy making each of these.

So, let's say that the cost per piece, out the door of Begg's shop, is fifty dollars, and let's use the high end price of two hundred dollars. That works out to a twenty-five percent markup.

A twenty five percent markup is not bad.

I'm not saying that there isn't a "halo effect" associated with some makers' names, but that seems to be mostly on the aftermarket. I understand that one seventy five to two hundred seems like a lot for something so simple... but it's not outrageous, either.

calculation is not correct... to get to $175 from 50$ it is a 350% markup and to get to $200 from $50 it is a 400% markup...

 

[Yo Mama]

I like the look of the tree frog, but no way I'd buy at that price, not even close.

Kershaw, (knocking head into wall), yes I know we lowly peons are a small percent of your customer base, but the 3cr13 is laughable. The steel they keep pushing out is just not appealing to me.

 

[Scurvy092]

I like the look of the tree frog, but no way I'd buy at that price, not even close.

Kershaw, (knocking head into wall), yes I know we lowly peons are a small percent of your customer base, but the 3cr13 is laughable. The steel they keep pushing out is just not appealing to me.

I didn't realize 3cr was the only steel they are offering these days...

There are a ton of 8cr designs still. Don't sulk about 3cr and go pick up a Strobe!

 

[Hiro-kun]

calculation is not correct... to get to $175 from 50$ it is a 350% markup and to get to $200 from $50 it is a 400% markup...

This is not correct either. "Markup" is the amount that is added to the manufacturing cost to get the selling price.
If a knife cost you $50 to make and you sell it for $50, the markup is $0 and the markup is 0% of the cost (the knife was marked up by 0% of the cost).
If a knife cost you $50 to make and you sell it for $175, the markup is: $175 - $50 = $125. The markup percentage here is $175 / $50 = 250%.
If a knife cost you $50 to make and you sell it for $200, the markup is: $200 - $50 = $150. The markup percentage here is $150 / $50 = 300%.
Citation

 

[hardheart]

200 is 400% of 50 (4*50)
200 is a 300% markup of 50 (3*50)+50
200 gives a 25% cost margin and 75% profit margin (50/200) & (150/200)

 

[Czechmate]

That frog should be a sub $100.00 knife IMO...

Also, 3cr is edge holding ability is similar to aluminum foil from what I've heard. (maybe even worse!)

 

[mr_anderson]

That frog should be a sub $100.00 knife IMO...

Also, 3cr is edge holding ability is similar to aluminum foil from what I've heard. (maybe even worse!)

Sure, and I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it. Go troll somewhere else.

 

[reapinItUP]

3CR...... just despicable Kershaw, just despicable.

 

[Morrow]

That frog should be a sub $100.00 knife IMO...

Also, 3cr is edge holding ability is similar to aluminum foil from what I've heard. (maybe even worse!)

We have plenty of examples showcasing the validity of information originating from "what I've heard" sources. I've fallen victim to it myself. I "heard" for years how terrible Case's Tru-Sharp was...too soft...poor edge retention blah blah blah. Then I actually did something remarkable...I tried it for myself After that I realized Tru-Sharp is indeed run a little soft for me and it's doesn't hold an edge all that great but.....it's a perfectly serviceable steel for light duty EDC chores. My point should be obvious...try it for yourself and tell your honest opinion otherwise you're just regurgitating someone else regurgitation and so on and so forth. Ewww...that's pretty gross when you think about it.

 

[goldie]

This is why I cannot see buying a field grade bodega. about 65% of the knife is made of g10,the only ti is the lockside which is 3/4th of that side, then the backspacer,clip & blade. ive seen em as high as 900.00 average price is about 650.00 & now that I recently saw that the last 1/2" or less of blade before the choil is unsharpened,so now you have less edge to work with.I see a trend more & more of knives going for silly money & its not worth it.theres many more fixed blades,too going for hundreds of dollars,similar to busse in style,a 1 piece blade,handle slabs, 350-450 500 many are 1095,too,which is nothing exotic.the other thing as mentioned here is the prolific use of the Chinese cr steels.AG Russell must have struck gold,cause 75% of his knives in his catalog now are way overpriced cr steel blades.Overpriced knives are becoming very popular lately,its a trend I am not going to follow...