Tony Long Katana

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kraut58

Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
4
Hello, everyone

First I have to apologise for my not too perfect English.
I’ve recently bought a Katana. Seller claims it to be Kobuse but with a softer outer Core. Material: 1060 Carbon. You can fully disassemble it. (Took me 3 hours and a bent Tsuba cause it was fully stuck in the Tsuka and I mean really stuck. Took me another 4 hours to file the Nakago down to fit.(Very likely still too tight to take it apart the traditionnel way but I wanted the Nakago to fit over its whole length in the Tsuka not a pseudo fit. The Same of course is 2 separate glued on pieces in this price range which doesn’t help long term stability of the Tsuka. The Hamon supposed to be 60 HRC and the Back 40 HRC. That’s where my problem starts. I sharpened it and it doesn’t feel as if it’s tempered to 60. Feels more like 45/50 if I compare the feeling to lots of different knives I sharpened in my life.( Puma, Gerber, Cold Steel, cheap knives and some I made myself) Don’t misunderstand it. I still got it very sharp with no burrs. Searching the web I’m 95% sure it’s a Tony Long product. I know it’s not in the Quality or Price Range of a Bugei, Cold Steel or Paul Chen Katana. Nevertheless: Is it Battle ready as claimed or just a wallhanger and has anybody more info about Tony Long Products? I got no idea or knowledge about Katana at the moment. If I get something than I want it to be proper. I don’t think a lot of Deco. My guns are cheap but accurate and my car is cheap but reliable. I know the price of higher end Katana.(I have to feed and keep my family) All I want is the unbiased opinion of somebody who had or has a Tony Long product. Are these Katana used in sport or did somebody try to use them with no success or was even told off by his master to try to use a Tony Long Katana ?????
I hope I didn’t upset the serious collectors of high end swords.
Thank You
Kraut58
 
Hello,
Thanks for your quick and non raving reply (waaah, if its cheap its definitely a wallhanger; you’ll kill yourself if you dare take it out of its sheath and look at it too hard etc. etc.) Sorry, got carried away.
I’ve searched the web high and low for info on Tony Long and couldn’t find anything. Really appreciate your help. Thanks.
Going back to HRC and usability I guess I have to wait till I meet an expert who is foolish enough to exercise a slicing test on my cheap Katana. Should that work, I might consider a proper (non two bit) Same wrap. (Not by me. Hopefully somebody who got experience) I’m not so bothered about the sheath which got no ehhhm horn mouth thingy. It’s a shame that a Rockwell test is quite expensive. I guess I just have to have faith in the dealer and forge. The only test I could manage is with my Redding lead bullet tester but I guess the Katana got anyway the wrong shape for it and even the hardest lead is hopefully a lot softer than the edge of the blade.
Thanks again, bye
 
To tell the truth I don't think the Tony Long would be worth the full same wrap and new ito wrap....
Where did you get it? From an online retailer you trust? From eBay (iffy)?
There's mixed reviews of Tony Long from some friends in the U.K. but it seems the quality is improving (but there was also one atrociously loud looking folded blade with large engravings on the flats recently seen at SFI). Honestly, I think for very little money (100-300 USD) Cheness Cutlery (small Chinese forge retailers in the USA) and Kris Cutlery (Filipino forge I believe, retail home is California?:confused: ) suffice, besides the typical, but expensive (from what I've seen) Hanwei swords. For those in Europe.... well I have no idea. There's no documentation on how well the Cheness holds up... we'll see.

Anyway... good luck. You could try making a koiguchi (the scabbard mouth) and reinforce it with cold-worked copper plate.
P.S. Battle ready is a term to be avoided usually.
AFAIK, the Hanwei factory's Practical Katana is about as low-end functional as you can go.
P.P.S. No 'expert' is foolish unless they're not really an expert. "Testing" a sword is possible but it is inherently dangerous because of the several unknowns.
 
Just a quick note on hardness - the PC stuff used to be advertised as 60/40 edge/spine, and as it turns out, the edge wasn't that hard. (I don't recall if the spine was that soft). You wouldn't really want a sword edge to be quite that hard - at 60 HRC, even relatively small knives can chip out, and you really don't want to tempt fate with a sharp, 2+ foot long piece of steel...

As a baseline, I hear that many modern smiths take Medieval style blades to the low-mid 50's, so expect a katana to be a few points higher along the edge. Not as high as 60, but mid-high 50's maybe.

As far as sharpening - I've noticed that carbon steels sharpen more easily than stainless steels, at equivalent hardnesses. Don't know if that's applicable to you, but I thought I'd put it out there. Also, did you put a secondary bevel on it, or did you maintain the shape of the blade? Since swords aren't really shaped the same as regular knives near the edge, part of the difference you felt might have been due to your sharpening technique being more aggressive when dealing with sword geometry.

One thing about modern production tsuka - a full same wrap is not likely to help longevity if you don't also make a new core. Part of the price difference between productions and customs is due to lackluster work on the woodwork and fittings. So if you're going to spring for a full wrap anyway, make sure to replace the handle core, as well. Modern glues create bonds that are stronger than the wood itself, anyway, so it's not really an issue if you decide to keep the handle as it is. SenoBDEC is also quite right that the sword is probably not worth shelling out for a nice piece of rayskin.

As far as the "battle ready" part goes, every sword instructor will have his own set of rules, which to the students are (rightfully) law. There are teachers that allow PPKs, others who ban them outright. As long as the sword is at a certain quality baseline (that's the hard part, isn't it?), someone will be able to do astonishing things with it.

Enjoy the sword, don't hurt yourself doing it, sell the car, make the kids work, and then buy yourself a custom when the bug bites you :)
 
Hello’ took me one hour to write a letter and when I wanted to paste it bl#### Micro. Word shut down with no safe just an error report option. In the links I got to the brit. Forums a lot of people seem so impressed with the quality of Tony Long blades that some consider having better handles made and other Tsubas fitted. They are the ones which got the first batches with one Menuki and often not tight enough fittings. The Katana I got recently has 2 Menukis which are for my taste too much angled (75 Grade, I think 80-85 would have been enough but I’m no expert) They are nicely polished, a bit too long, and got a firm tight fitting. The wrapping is as well very tight so you can’t move it a fraction. I bought the Katana at eBay. (YES YES YES) There seem to be 2 or 3 UK dealers which seem to know their business with Katana and one who doesn’t but he still offers Tony Long products.This is the opinion from people in the brit. Forum. The dealer I bought it from offered me to pick it up in person with a deduction of p&p . I did so cause he lives in London like I do. At his warehouse I had the choice of several Katana, all the same but with two different Tsubas. They all seem to be slightly improved version without being loose, as a matter of fact my Tsuka turned out to be tight as hell. The hamon was on no Katana as pronounced in wavelines as in the picture. Nonetheless buyers swear that they are genuine. My Hamon is as wide but not as wavelike. Acid edging or wire brush edging is for me also no problem to recognize. And this Hamon is none of both. What a lot of people moaned about is the Bo-Hi. They want Katana without them. Anyway why not use the links from senoBDEC type Tony Long in search and read the threads. There are loads even when the headline doesn’t state tony long. On eBay UK there are still a few Tony Long Katana going but they sold so quick that the dealers seem to wait for new stock. They are not advertised as Tony Long but easy recognizable. The dealers outside eBay seem to run out of them as well cause you see a lot out of stock offers. But they offer them as Tony Long products. The sheaths of them are very basic but I didn’t expect a Porsche for the price of a Toyota.
One of the very few offers on eBay UK which is still going has the Item number: 6597100883 . It’s the same Katana I got only I have a different more simple Tsuba.
That’s all for the moment. Thanks for your patience.
 
I believe you speak of mekugi. :D.

A) No matter how tight the wrap may be, how well it stands up is very important. Your instructor SHOULD know which is good and which is not, but sometimes they don't - they arbitrarily dismiss entire brands. I personally see it as playing it safe OR not knowing which are good swords but knowing where to get the swords they prefer and use (which honestly tend to be good quality). Quite a few instructors allow PPK and PK's (especially the older generations) if they've tested them first and see they're, while not spectacular, useable.

B)The tsuka shape is comparable to the STRAIGHT and often very beefy tsuka on the Hanwei line (even at the high-end stuff, though not as much) but is said to have more of an hourglass shape - can you confirm/invalidate this? When you dismantle your tsuka take some time to inspect the channel for any splinters, bad carving, looseness, etc (yeah I know it's too tight, but it will eventually loosen up with use). I'm sure your instructor has taught you already how to inspect the sword for fatal wear and tear... but it's playing it safe to repeat it. The mekugi should of course be inspected and be changed periodically (whenever it wears out - could be 2 months, could be a year). The Cheness Cutlery video (see their site) is telling... my guess is all the lower-end forges do it this way and I wouldn't be surprised/dismayed if I'm right. You may be able to email him for the "other video" about one of the competitors.

C)Bo-hi, ah yes... indeed it is far overdone on production katana but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Usually it's too deep and thus helps weaken the blade. Making it shallow and with proper geometry the blade is substantially stronger than if done improperly. However, it shouldn't make a difference with good cutting technique :jerkit:. Psch... I do wonder why bo-hi are so common though.... besides the silly sound. They're not common on uchigatana except for "removing" flaws and such....

D) eBay auction... I find it misleading to call it a "Koto Nakamura katana" but it isn't being passed off as an antique so whatever....:yawn: looks decent
 
Hello,
The Tsuka starts at the front with 40mm, reduces towards the middle to 35mm and increases towards the back to 38mm. That’s wrapping included seen from the side. From top viewed it’s from the front ~30mm through to the back. At the back perhaps 28mm. Top measurements more difficult cause of the turns in the cotton wrap. The inside is very smoth with no toolmarks at all. Inside got some black wide lines ( about 3-5mm and then fading and going over into the neighbouring lines) from front to back (7) which seem to be from the Nakago, and from the first Mekugi hole (front) there is a slight groove in the wood. I smoothened that side of the hole. Metal sticking out cause of drilling caused the groove. Don’t know the engl. word for it. The Nakago got on both sides top from the front for about 7cm smooth but prominent file marks about 2mm long, 1mm wide and I guess about 0.3mm deep (perhaps 0.2mm) spaced apart about 2.5 – 3mm.
The Sori is 17mm. Thickness of the blade: 7mm above the Bo-hi and 8mm below Bo-hi. The Tsuba without the Tsuka fitted got no play sideways or up and down if you press it against the Habaki. Unfortunately the Habaki got at the bottom a space of about 2mm. No play at the sides (quite a pig to take it off or put it back on. The Seppa are quite a loose fitting nearly 1mm to all directions. When the blade is pushed back into Tsuka it stops perfectly in alignment with the Mekugis.
Going to sharpening, no I didn’t put a second bevel on it. I can follow with stones the original line and angle but if I tried in the past a new bevel I normally made slight cock-ups and it took me a long time and sweat to even it. Considering the lengh of a sword I probably would regret it big time. I sharpen free hand.
My Katana was called by the seller a KOTO- HAND FORGED MUSASHI KATANA.
I haven’t got an instructor cause I haven’t found a school in London yet. I still have to look up the terms for the Katana parts. Mind you, you never stop learning in life.
 
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