Too ergonomic?

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Rob Simonich

Big Bear
Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
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Reading through the Al Mar Warrior thread Glockman hit on something I have been thinking a LOT about lately. Can fighting knives be too ergonomic? I think so. Too many finger grooves and too many palm swells and dips and curves and shapes in my opinion can make a knife be too ergonomic for a variety of grips and limit usefullness. More and more I am going with very simple handles on Fighter/Tactical/Combat knives to accomodate many different grip styles and quick grip changes. Handles can be too simple as well, take the round handle of the venerable K-Bar. Even feeling the guard there it is difficult to tell in the dark under stress where the mean edge is. I think there has to be a way to index as well.

I got an Al Mar SERE Operator for a project in the mail today and it has one of the most user friendly multi use/grip handles I have held in a long time. Cool knife.

So, what do you guys think? I think handles are as important as the blade itself. Opinions? Am I nuts? Greg, what are your thoughts?
 
ABSOLUTELY!

The handle is the part the user grips, so a good maker will pay attention to that!

Strider handles shine ehre, as far as peopel paying attention to details. There is a cut on the butt to facilitate thumb on back reverse grip, the grip is made to optimize gripping, and the handle shape allows a multitude of grips. AWESOME! Other grips I liek are those that are narrower at the handle/huard junction and wider at the butt, with a bit of a bird's beak pommell or some sort of down turn to the pommell. This simple grip shape locks your hand into forward and reverse grip, and there isn't anything in the way of grip changes.

I had a CRKT Companion for a while, and the neatest thign about it was the grip. That knife taught me about specialized grips. Hold a Kasper design in a forward grip and WOW! It doesn't want to leave your hand! But the knife is pretty much only comfortable in that and edge out reverse grip. A Kasper grip without the subhilt bit would be great too, for edge in/out reverse and all sorts of forward grips.

Rob, I love your handle stiles already, and your gunner grip sounds awesome! If you are still experimenting and playing, I can't wait to see what you come up with.
 
Too Ergonomic no, Too specialized sure thing!

I feel that one of the things that i do best is handle design, and i also feel that it is one of the most important aspect of a knife, since it is the handle that interfaces with the user.

One of the things that i have done with my handle design is think about all of the ways i could hold a knife, and design the handle to accomodate all of those positions. I also try to prevent any of the special features from interfearing with other aspects of the handle.

The Handle is also dependent on the type of knife, since a chopper should have a much different handle than a tactical.

My goal in handle design is to invision a handle that is comfortable in a multitude of grips and is "high retention" so you cant lose your knife no matter what you are doing with it.

I have even thought of creating a classification system for knife handles.

So far here is what i have.

the AFCKious, inclueds knifes like the AFCK, Commander, and the Amphibian.

Specwarious-charictorized by the mid finger swell, knives like the Chinook would be a member of this group.

EDCious-or "the wave" some of ken onions knives and the BM710.
 
I also have a CRKT Companion and bought it mostly because of the awesome grip. I have also noticed what others have that the grip design is for standard forward and reverse grips, and not their edge up/in variations. But I don't care. I can't imagine actually attempting to use one of those variations in an SD situation anyway. Unless there's an incredibly good reason, that knife is going to remain a fistful of steel, and I would not release my secure hold on it to change grips. You can do a hell of a lot with the standard forward and reverse grips.

Knife retention through grip design is of paramount importance in my purchases, possibly even to surpass other highly important knife characteristics.
 
One reason I'm trying to get a blade with a cord-wrapped handle (f.ie, Strider) is that I think they're damn good: don't slip very easily, although can cause a bruising of the palm, but os do most of the knives; the variety of different grips is almost endless; and if the cord breaks (very rare) the knife is still a fully usable full tang blade. The cord can be removed (didn't know that before saw the Striders) and used as a weapon, rescue cord etc. My 0,02 €

NB. I don't OWN one yet, so i might not know about how it performs in the long run. I'm planning to find out in the summer..But I've tried them and heard people who've used them--and those I've met have liked them. If someone knows the cons of these type of knives..please inform me!

Cheers!
 
Lizard, maybe "specialized" is a better word. Good stuff so far! My wife and I have three of Striders knives now and we love the cord wrap. Now if I can figure out if that is a good or bad smile Mick left! :p
 
I'm a big fan of round handles for utility knives as they are so versatile. Generally you are looking at what you are working on.
 
Cord Wrapped or the concept of handles that can conform to your hand could be a great future development for knife handles. Strider knives are probably one of the best examples of High Quality simple handled knives, the only real problem i have with cord wrapped handles is that Nylon Absorbes water.

I have some pretty advanced (at least i think so) handle designs in the works for some companies, and i am really excited about them, i have found that i can take a standard handle and with a little modification and rethinking of the details make them much better. I am also looking into other materials to use, i would like to see more things done with Krayton, since it would be great for high volume lower cost knives, and i think the Krayton that's out there really isnt used very well.

I am also very interested in dual compound handles where different materials are used, so the handel shape and can be simple but since the materials have different properties it would allow them to accomodate many different grip styles and hand sizes.
 
The traditional cord wraps on Japanese swords also offers excellent grip security and versatility (same concept of peaks and valleys as Strider's wrap, but maybe a bit tighter). The shark/rayskin underneath is like a very coarse sandpaper that allows the silk ribbon to be wrapped very tightly without slipping. The silk is only about $30, but the wrapping service costs over $100 (it takes skill and a few hours to do this).

The only production fighting knife I've found with this style wrap is the Busse Killer B, which I'm seriously considering as a 'pointy' fixed blade edc ;) .

~SteelDriver
 
SteelDriver, that is exactly what I am talking about. The sort of handles on the Japanese stuff, as well as say an old Green River butcher knife with the checkered handle etc actually outshine the advanced specialized handles of today for the most part. A couple hundred years ago hand tools were used on a daily basis much more than today for the most part. Rarely do you see complex handle shapes. Of course, maybe all the folks back then had bad carpel tunnel!
 
Rob, that's a very keen observation. Back when every tool was a hand tool, and given the woodworking and crafting abilities that civilized cultures had back then, it's reasonable to conclude that if a super-ergo handle style were found, it would last. And we do see that today: the forward angle of the Nepalese khukri which improves chopping power and comfort, for instance. And of course the Japanese cord wraps and a lot of other innovations too numerous to mention.

I'd rather get carpal tunnel using my knives HARD then typing on a keyboard! :D

~SteelDriver
 
I have had a few ergonomic handles on knives that really fit my hands, my EKI Commander is one. One I handled that fit my hand was the REKAT Hobbit, and I was suprised of that, because finger-grooves and I dont agree usually.
And then there have been some that didnt fit my hand too well at all.

But, some that stand out in my mind that werent ergonomic/specialized, that felt superb in my hand.
My Cold Steel Recon Scout (before I got the bright idea to re-handle it, and ruined the kraton handle *grumble*) felt excellent in my hand, and it was a simple handle design.
Old square/rectangular handled butcher knives too, one we have that is a very worn down Herters hunting knife, from the 50's or so, has a finger groove, but is basically a rectangular handle, and it feels great in the hand.

I think for a really ergonomic handle to be perfect, it has to be truly custom fitted to the users hand.... this isnt always possible, and there are some generalizations that can be made to get a handle that will fill the hand of *most* people, really well, without having to custom fit it. (For me, my Emerson Commander is a good example of this... and for others too I think.)
My feelings on pure handle design are this: Hand shouldnt be able to slip up onto the blade, hand shouldnt be able to easily slip off over the back, incase the blade gets stuck in something and has to be jerked out, handle should fill the hands of most users, on knives that have a swell through the middle of the handle (looking at it from the side), I think thicker scales though the middle, thinner at the front and back, to fill the palms better, and on some rectangular handle knives as well, altho for a basic regtangular handled knife, give it a finger groove, and leave it alone beyond there, unless its going to be fitted to a users hand, IMO.
Another handle shape I like, is like that on the Randall Model 1 (or the Cold Steel "version"), except, not so rounded, flatter, like full tang, with scales attached... I find this to be very comfortable as well, scales dont have to be twiddled with, thinner here thicker there, just rounded, from top to bottom, for a comfy feel.
These approaches/ideas I try to use when I make knives also... altho I'm just a hobbyist at it for now... so my ideas could be totally screwed too. :o
 
I think that handles can be too ergonomic but also can go too far the other way.

I have talked to a few vets that absolutely hate the basic Randall 14 for that reason....that it limits you to pretty much one grip position. Other people love it though.

I have used knives where the handle was too basic also...while chopping the knife had a tendency to walk out of your hand. Completely rounds handles, like some KABARS, can twist around in use too.

Maybe the answer lies somewhere in between. Personally, I like a grip with flat sides, rounded edges, single fingergroove, and a slight hook to the butt that doesnt dig into your little finger when chopping.
 
How about some Jerry Hossom Input?

I have heard him quoted as saying that when you grip a knife handle everywhere that there is space should be filled by the handle or something to that effect.

How does this philosophy contrast with the Strider Cord Wrapped Straight handle concept?
 
Similar thing shows up in regards to handgun grips. I read Bill Jordan's book,"No Second Place Winner" way back in the 60's. He had designed a revolver (no LEOs carried autos back then-hardly) grip that was virtually smooth, with a big, flat shelf to rest the middle finger against, and a swell to put the recoil into the palm, rather than into the web of the hand. The "jordan trooper" was the best DA handgun grip I ever used. No checkering, no finger grooves- he claimed this allowed fast, fractional grip changes during drawing and firing.
 
I'll vote for the simple, time tested, basic handle shapes that have been around for thousands of years. Most of the basic handle designs that have evolved over the years go along with certain uses that the knife, sword, or tool might be used for. The machete handle helps chopping, the fencing foil handle aids in blade control, the symmetrical dagger handle goes with the symmetrical blade. I do some wood carving, and the handles for these carving tools are all basic, simple shapes. The hand easily adapts to these basic handles and the tools can be used in many different ways. Leigh
 
Well, I've listened, and now it's my turn. A properly designed ergonomic grip does not restrict movement or hand position. It DOES provide support for the hand, just like a well designed car seat supports the back. You might argue that also restricts movement, but not in any meanful fashion if it's done right. A palm swell centers the hand on the grip, and supports the grip so that there is minimal dependence on a guard for protection from sliding forward in a hard thrust. Most FMA practicioners will tell you that the strength in a good grip comes from the two rear fingers, and most FMA fighting styles employ a wide variety of hand positions on a knife handle, changing often and quickly sometimes. A palm swell, filling the palm, also reduces shock on hard impacts since there are no gaps in which the handle can slap around. It is snug against the meaty parts of your hand. That also reduces any tendancy for the handle to slip or twist. One of the key functions of a palm swell too is to keep your hand away from the guard or any rear drop you may have. Since the hand centers on the palm swell, there is room to move at both ends for changing the angle of the blade.

If you are swinging a knife for long periods of time in chopping or slashing, a rear drop is very useful for support. That's why you see them even on even cheap machetes, blades that get used for more work for longer periods of time than almost any blade outside a butcher shop. This allows for a very loose grip to reduce hand fatigue and/or blisters.

All this said, I despise finger grooves for all the reasons given. They seriously restrict movement, and unless you are locked into them and can become so instantly, your grip is actually weakened by them. They get in the way. The only exception is on something like a 3-finger handle where they are about all you have to hang onto.

When you think about it, a secure grip comes from the maximum amount of skin to handle contact you can achieve. You have two choices to get that. You can squeeze harder to make your hand conform to the handle, or you can get a handle that conforms to the natural contours of your hand. Your choice.

The advantages of a very tactile grip, as on a Strider is that you don't need to squeeze very hard, because you need less skin to handle contact due to the traction you get from the wrappings. If that same handle were smooth however, it would be muc less secure. I've always felt there were three kinds of grips that worked well. Mine, which are ergonomic, but open enough for hand movement. Strider's which are extremely tactile. And Rob's which combine the two with some ergonomic support and a textured surface. And that's why they make Ford, Chevy and Dodge trucks...

Just let me add this bit. Ergonomic handles come in many shapes, depending on how the knife is to be held and used. In this knife, the handle is very open to allow for rapid position changes, but the sides are hollowed to accommodate the fleshy portion of the palm, just below your fingers on one side, and your finger tips on the other, all designed to increase the amount of hand to handle contact for security. The elongated oval centers your hand naturally and generally fills your palm even in a fairly small knife. But this knife has only one use, and chopping is not one of them.

(edited to fix a misstatement)
 
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