Total Edge Holding Ability - Steelability

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anonymous76

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Feb 10, 2019
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After a blade initially loses its ability to cut it may (or may not) be steeled, so that it continues to cut. It has been my experience that not all blade steels take to a sharpening steel. This is probably dependent on a number different of factors. I recall that many years ago I made a chefs knife from CPM-440V and attempted to revive the edge on a sharpening steel after it had become dull. As you can probably imagine the sharpening steel did nothing to the edge. I collect and use antique kitchen knives. All are carbon steel and many seem to be relatively soft. Most of the softer blades take to a sharpening steel beautifully. So here is my question, has anyone out there tried testing out how well a blade takes to a sharpening steel? It would be interesting to see the relationship between hardness, and total edge holding ability (with steeling) for a specific alloy. I think this conversation would be generally limited to low alloy carbon steels (e.g. 1080, 5160, 52100, O-1 etc.) since I assume that richer alloys would not take to a sharpening steel well. I may be wrong. Anyway, this is something I intend to test in the future and I was curious if anyone has tried this already. I expect that a steeled edge would not last as long as the initial edge (from a sharpening stone). Also, with subsequent steelings the edge would probably grow weaker and weaker resulting in an ever diminishing ability to hold an edge.
 
Carbon steel blades of the past were Rc 55-57 at the most. They were simple carbon mixes with little or no alloying. The edge rolled in use and the rolled over wire was re-shaped with a steel that was Rc62ish. The steel also sheared away some of the thinnest parts, leaving an aggressive micro-serration. As you repeated this process, the edge got thicker and thicker, reducing the cutting ability until it needed a full re-sharpening and re-setting the edge thickness.

Now we make blades at Rc64 and in high alloy steels, as well as stainless steel. The edge doesn't roll anymore, but wears away ... requiring sharpening, not steeling. A steel will do almost nothing on most modern knives.

I keep a Japanese paddle stone by the knife block. It is a fine grit and softer stone mounted on a board with a handle. I wet the stone from the tap and give the blade a few passes along the edge before use. This makes the knife very sharp. It also keeps the edge thin. It may take a very long time before a blade needs a trip to the shop for full sharpening.
 
You might want to look at the "Maintenance Tinkering Embellishment" sub forum. The topic of using butcher's steels on various knife steels is discussed often, but Stacy has the straight dope. For the harder steels, I like using a ceramic "butcher's steel". It's a lot harder than knife steel, and actually sharpens the knife. Most of them, regardless of vendor, are in the 1200 ANSI grit rating.
 
I find with steels like z-wear or V4e, using a steel, or even a ceramic “steel” does nothing useful. A 1200x then a 8000x Diamond plate is the way to go. If you have the patience, ceramic stones work well too. They just take a little longer.
 
Interesting observation, Warren, and one that I generally concur with. I use the ceramic rod on 64HRC CPM M4. Of course on a very thin edge geometry (guess who made the knife!). But there is something to be said here. It doesn’t work “quite” as well with higher carbide steels/high hardness as it does with low alloy carbon steels at high hardness. I didn’t want to bring all that up, tho it did cross my mind. Still, it does help, and from what I have experienced, works well enough as a touch up. This gets back to the fact that ceramic is way harder than the steel matrix that holds the carbides, and because the rod is round the contact area has more pressure than a stone of ceramic. For sure the rod isn’t harder than the carbides, but for a convenient option that is easily used, seems to work well enough for me.

But no question, steels like M4, 4V, etc with their harder carbides will not respond “as well” to a ceramic rod compared to more simple steels at high hardness like 10xx, O1, 52100, A2 etc. For the vanadium alloyed steels, a better option would probably be a diamond rod (if rod is what you’re after). Or diamond plates. But not too many people have kitchen knives in these kind of steels, for good reason. They are NO FUN to finish and polish to the degree a kitchen knife should be.
 
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Well this conversation has gone in an interesting direction. I guess I am old school about blade steel, very old school. I personally prefer a softer carbon steel blade (around 57-58 Rockwell) that can be sharpened and maintained on any sharpening implement easily. I am addicted to the grabby edge I can get with a softer carbon steel blade. That's not to say that it isn't possible to get a grabby edge on harder blades. The sharpest knife I have ever owned was a Japanese sushi knife and I wouldn't dare take a steel to it. That knife would bite into your skin without you knowing it. Ultimately, I guess my original question boils down to the longevity of simple carbon and low alloy steel blades. What would be better (last longer), a softer carbon steel blade that can be steeled again and again, or a harder blade that cannot be steeled? Has anyone investigated this?
 
With good steel, HT and geometry, harder is better for a cutting knife.

Just upgrade to a ceramic rod and be happy.


anonymous76 said:
Well this conversation has gone in an interesting direction. I guess I am old school about blade steel, very old school. I personally prefer a softer carbon steel blade (around 57-58 Rockwell) that can be sharpened and maintained on any sharpening implement easily. I am addicted to the grabby edge I can get with a softer carbon steel blade. That's not to say that it isn't possible to get a grabby edge on harder blades. The sharpest knife I have ever owned was a Japanese sushi knife and I wouldn't dare take a steel to it. That knife would bite into your skin without you knowing it. Ultimately, I guess my original question boils down to the longevity of simple carbon and low alloy steel blades. What would be better (last longer), a softer carbon steel blade that can be steeled again and again, or a harder blade that cannot be steeled? Has anyone investigated this?
Click to expand...
 
I used to polish my edges but I'm now sold on low grit sharpening. Maybe if I cut sushi it would be different. I have a large Course DMT plate that is pretty easy to find all the time and 20 strokes re sharpens followed by a quick debur on a diamond loaded paint stir stick strop brings every thing back for a month or so using plastic cutting boards. It's a shaving sharp aggressive edge if you like that sort of thing. As far as delicate cutting goes I have can cut the print off of paper and if you play with it a bit I can cut the print off of receipt paper. I know it works well on S35VN and M2 and can comment on M4 as soon as I get my LN filled again. I find that I don't have much patience for things like AEB-L and 15n20 in my own kitchen when you can have the more wear resistant steel and they are so easy to sharpen. I like to cook and do a fair bit of it in our house and it gives me a chance to see how my knives perform. It might be worth a try if you want that quick and dirty edge from a steel but on a much harder knife.
 
Ceramic rods have a different function than steels as former are abrasives while the steels only straighten the edge with minimal abrasiveness.
What Stacy writes is correct but for some reason the Dickoron steels do work on harder steels at least up to 65 HRC, especially the Dickoron Saphire and Dickoron Micro Super Fine and also the Dickoron Titanium.

Here is a recent comparison test of the Dick steels with knives up to 65 HRC:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/4389/pa-berichte-titan-und-rapid

I still use my sharpening stones but have grown quite fond of my steels (Dickoron Saphire and Micro Super Fine) as they produce a working edge within seconds. I also have a Sieger ruby ceramic rod which I sometimes use for curved blades but the downside of ceramic steels is that the knife will get fat behind the edge fast if that is something you are trying to avoid.

I definitely wouldn't use my steels on my Maxamet Spydercos but have used them on a HAP40 kitchen knife. The harder the steel, the gentler the steeling should be.
 
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