Totally Impressed!

B

Biginboca

Gold Member
Joined
Mar 17, 1999
Messages
1,690
I realize that this is totally non scientific, but I wanted to share this knife test with everyone here for what it is worth. It left me pretty amazed.

Today at work I got into a discussion with a coworker regarding the strength of his Large SOCOM Tanto as a user knife. To make a long story short, we clamped the knife in a vise and attempted to break the blade to handle juncture by flexing the knife sideways, like a crowbar. I am 5'9" and 190 pounds of muscle. I lift weights five or six times a week and have a bodybuilders type build. I flexed with all my might, using two hands and applying about 175-200lbs static pressure (estimated from comparison with weights used during rows at the gym) of force and was unable to accomplish any sort of failure on his knife. Another coworker tried to break it by rocking back and forth applying his full weight into the knife in both directions as he did so.
Not only did the knife not fail, when we removed it from the vise it closed and opened perfectly, and the blade was still centered in the handle. There was slight play in the open position, but the knife was perfectly serviceable!

I have never attempted this with any of my own knives, and never would, but I honestly thought I could make this knife fail! Now I am $20 poorer though, and rethinking my daily carry!

Has anyone else really tried to make a folder fail? Did they fail and what did it take? Or do any of you have stories of unbelieveable strength to tell?

I am curious as to what other knives have "walkled the walk" and not just "talked the talk".




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Al
 
Hi Guys...

Ok,, I don't want this to turn into a fire fight or anything,,, but..

Why would anyone,,unless they are testing a knife for breakage potential want to do this or have this done to a blade they spent good money on?

If the blade did get damaged,,

How would you send something like this back for repair and expect the person who made it,,repair or replace it free of Charge?

Wouldn't you be afraid the manufacturer would say Tough Luck,,, for abusing the knife in such a way...

I know that I wouldn't do Anything like that to something I own,, and presume to treasure.

I would just like to have someone explain this phenomenon to me....

Thanks...

Eric E. Noeldechen

------------------
Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!



[This message has been edited by Normark (edited 20 December 1999).]
 
What part of the test is abuse? What we did was put the knives through tests that would show how they would react in real world situations.

The only real failure was during the AT Barr test and that will show you who has the best lock right away.

------------------
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[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 20 December 1999).]
 
Mr. Normark,

If you don't, how will you know?

In an emergency, you may need to use a blade, or any tool, to its limits. It's a good idea to find out where those limits are before hand. Even in a non-emergency, it's a good idea to know what you can expect from your tools.

If a knife fails this type of testing, it's not necessarily a bad knife, but you'll probably want to rething what circumstances you'll use that knife under and just what you'll expect from it.



------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick
 
Hi Guys....

Mike...

I wasn't refering to your tests... I understand why you guys test them....

Chuck...

That's fine,, I also understand that it needs to be done,, but why to a blade you own? Would you do these types of tests on Your Own blade ?

I'll just wait til it comes out in someone else's test.. I sure as heck,,not gonna do it on my own!
smile.gif


I think you guys missed my point..
smile.gif


Thanks..

Eric....


------------------
Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
I just tried that with the folder I am currently carring, the Spyderco Calypso Jr. . With the blade viced I was able with one hand just by torquing down with my wrist to pop the slabs apart. Fixing it was easy, I just hit the pin with a hammer to drive it back in. The action is as smooth as ever.

It does not take much force to pop the knife apart, if I wrap the blade I can do it just holding onto the blade and handle and flexing it. This knife is about a year old though and has been my main carry knife and has seen constant use so it might not be as strong as a new one.

I have a CS VG at home, I'll try it out with that later on.

-Cliff

 
If a knife breaks while locked in a vise, to me that constitutes abuse. If you want to do that with your knives fine. I still think that is abuse though, and would think that would void any knifemakers warranty factory or custom. I may catch some flack for stating my opinion on this, but it is definetly my opinion. Any knife can be broken if someone wants to bad enough.

------------------
Lynn Griffith-Knifemaker

griffithknives.com
GriffithKN@aol.com
Available Knives
 
Before anybody gets too upset about people testing knives to destruction and returning them for replacement under warranty, you might wait until somebody does that.

As far as I know it hasn't happened yet.

Testing a knife by using it for the things it's advertised to be useful for is another matter entirely, of course.



------------------
-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
Cougar,
I agree with you. I should point out that I am not upset by his test or anyones test. I personally have broken knives by locking them in vises and breaking them. Some were made by me, some were factory knives (I won't name names), and I have broken a couple of custom knives. I did this purely as a test, and was willing to accept it if they broke. I have no problem with anyone destroying there knives, if they own them. I just wanted it to be known that I feel that if they destroy them by means of abusive testing, that they should not expect any warranty repair of said knife by the maker. In other words if it is there fault, they should accept that. On the other hand, any knife that breaks while being used in the reccomended manner, should be replaced easily by the maker of factory.

I hope that clears up my opinion on the matter.

Thanks,


------------------
Lynn Griffith-Knifemaker

griffithknives.com
GriffithKN@aol.com
Available Knives
 
Hi Lynn ...


I agree 100%.. That would be like me putting my Snap On tools into a vise and twisting them off. It can be done,,easily... But if the Snap On dude,, senses I've "Abused" the tool,,by putting it into a vise,,even though it's lifetime,, he flip it back to me,,and thats it I'm SOL...

If I blow a tip off of a blade from using it in a normal fashion,,I have no problem returning it.. I do it All The Time with my tools if I bust one,, thats why it's lifetime..

ttyle Eric...



------------------
Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
Ok Guys, here are a couple of questions regarding the test.

1) In the course of using a knife during the day do you find it necessary to lock the blade in a vise and see if you can break it?

2) Reference the AT Barr test. Again, when during the course of the day do your turn your knife upside down and whack the blade against a hard object?

As for the blade in the vise, you realize that the pivot pin would swedge long before you ever broke the blade. This of course would have a adverse effect on the handle and probably release the liner lock, thus closing the blade on your hand. Prying is not the job for a folding knife.

I have used liner locks for well over a decade and have never had one close on my hand, ever! Of course I was using the knife for the purpose it was intended and using it the proper way.

All these tests are fine. However, if you want a real world test. Box up some of those knives and send them to an Infantry unit and tell them to abuse them.

These boys would send you back a metal ball bearing broke in half! LOL

Tests, while the will help define some limits, need to be more realitic as to what the knife is intended to be used for.

For instance, how many deer will a particular hunting knife dress out? Now that to me seems a much better test than to see if that blade will break in a vise.

Just food for thought.

Les
 
Les,
Your points are all valid.

But what prefaced this discussion was an article I read, either in the most recent Tactical Knives or Blade, about a rock climber using a custom makers folding knife as a foothold to support his weight for about half an hour. Apparently an emergency arose and he had no footing, so he jammed his knife sideways into a crevice and stood on the handle until help arrived.
Is it neessary to test knives for this kind of use, **** NO!
But knives do get used this way, and in an emergency I for one would like to know what I can expect my knife to do if I really need to abuse it. And if I have x amount of dollars to spend, I want to make sure I am spending them the best way I can.

Any knife will do what I require on a daily basis, open boxes and packaging.
I am more concerned with what they will do when that unforseen emergency arises. I do not test knives in this way. I cannot afford to! But the purpose of this thread was to find out what other knives have survived abuse when the need arose, and also to share the discovery of one that could.




------------------

Al
 
Hi Al,

The rock climber you speak of was indeed fortunate. However, I would hazard to guess that his knife would not work as intended after this. Not that he would care.

I understand the point of this thread and it has merit. I am just advocating real world tests. Not merely a standard test that in theroy all knives could of a simliar style could do, for no more reason that it can be done.

Regarding the climber, perhaps next time he should carry one extra piton. Generally, these weigh no more than a folder and cost far less. Properly inserted, several of us could stand on it with no failure. Additionally, after we got off of the piton, it could be used again.

While stationed at Ft. Campbell, the weather went from 75 degrees at 10am. By 1700 the temperature was 27 degrees and 4 inches of snow had fallen. Of course in between this we had freezing rain as well.

While at 10am, the gortex lined boots were a little toasty, come 1700 I sure was glad I had them.

First rule in the US Army Ranger Handbook:

Don't forget nothing!

Point is, Al you are exactly right, knives should not be expected to withstand such punishment. It was not what they were intended to be used for.

So when you are going out and about, especially in the great outdoors, remember, right tool for the right job.

If you think about what can go wrong (and Mr. Murphy is out there waiting for you), plan accordingly and "don't forget nothing". There is a good chance you will not find yourself hoping your folder will hold up as a foot hold.

When I was on active duty, in the field I carried 3 knives and 1 machate. Oddly enough, none of these knives broke or were lost. Additionally, I always had the right tool for the right job!

Les
 
Lynn :

If a knife breaks while locked in a vise, to me that constitutes abuse.
Click to expand...

Why, exactly? I don't do this very often because I don't have a vice that is locked down solid enough to support any weight but if I did have one I would probably do it fairly often. It is a very easy and safe way to example blade ductility and strength. Now I don't mean put a pipe on something, bend it until it breaks for the purpose of breaking it. While that would give a lot of valuable information (from the structure of the break), it is a deliberate attempt to push the blade past its limits. It is then abusive.

However, all blades should be able to flex to some extent. How much depends on the temper and geometry of the blade. One of the first things I discuss with makers/dealers is exactly this, asking them how much it will flex if viced at a specific point. Sometimes you will get a vague "oh it will flex a good deal" or worse a strong "what would you want to do that for" line. Both of these indicates the deal is over. Either the maker/dealer does not know (and they should) or they do but want to hype the blade and therefore will not say specifics.

Also as Cougar noted what you do should greatly depend on the blade and how it is described by the maker/dealer. For example concerning folders, awhile ago I got interested in the MPF from Mission. I spent some time on the phone with Sid Post relating what I wanted and asking performance questions. One of them is directly related to the topic at hand, side force on the lock. I knew from previous posts that the MPF has been said to take a lot of force straigt against the integral liner without harm, but I was wondering about prying and thus asked Sid to discuss with Mission if I needed to be concerned about damaging the lock by torquing on the blade sideways, their answer was no.

In general why would I want this in a folder? Well it quite simply it gives it a greater range of use with no drawbacks.

-Cliff
 
I keep thinking of all the people who don't dare do any prying at all with a knife for fear of breaking it. If they knew how much side force their carry knives can take they'd find them much more useful tools. In some cases, anyway -- some cheap knives really can't take any prying at all.

Think of the guy who started this thread -- if he hadn't done that test he might have gone his whole life never daring to pry with that knife.

I keep thinking of how one of our members found himself locked out of the house and broke his knife trying to pry open the door, too. Some time you might have to pry at something and might not have any tool but your carry knife available in the emergency. Wouldn't you rather buy a knife that's so strong you couldn't break it in a vise than a knife that would break if you apply five pounds of force to it trying to get a computer case open? How would you know the difference if somebody didn't do these "unrealistic" tests and post their results?



------------------
-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
I can see both sides of the issue. Yes, some tests seem unrealistic and chances are 1:1,000,000 that you'll ever come into a situation close to having your knife stuck in a vice. On the other hand, you'll never know "what else" your knife can do other than cut (which is the obvious use). One could say "Well, ok, stick it in a vice and bend it,but don't break it". Well, how would you know when it will break unless you break it? I mean if you bend it 20 degrees and then quit, is that the limit? Would it have broken at 21 degrees or would it survive maybe 30 or 40 or... Someone needs to find out. But who?
I think it shouldn't be the consumer. I can afford to spend $300 on a knife. Once. I don't want to break it and then get a new one now knowing what the limits of that mode are.
Such data should come from the manufacturer.
Just my $0.02 as usual

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The impossible I can do right away, miracles take a little longer.
 
Cougar :

Wouldn't you rather buy a knife that's so strong you couldn't break it in a vise than a knife that would break if you apply five pounds of force to it trying to get a computer case open?
Click to expand...

For the most part I think the important aspect is just that - there are strong functional knives out there so the obvious question becomes why don't you want that. If I had to put up with a blade that cut very poorly in order to be of any strength that would be different, but the simple fact is that this is not the case. The Uluchet being one example. It is a lightweight hatchet that is both very durable and functions very well as a skinning and chopping blade.

Arizona, in an ideal world your solution would be the best, just ask the maker/dealer and use that to guide your work. However to be blunt, they lie, no of course not all of them, but there are makers and dealers that lie about their work. The maker lies to the dealers, the dealers lie to the customers and those people then spread the lies (often not intentionally) to others. Because of this it is simply not sensible to go on faith that you are getting 100% fact when discussing buying a knife. This is the primary reason that you should always ask "So can I check that" even if you have no intention of doing it. If the maker/dealer is telling the truth why would they possibly object? If the answer is anything by a very strong "of course" then the deal is off.

I think it was either Cougar or Drew who said awhile ago that they ignored any claims that the buyer could not verify for themselves. Cold Steel being one example of a company that does this very heavily. I would go one step further, if someone is making claims and not allowing them to be verified (you will void the warrenty if you do any of these things which we are using to show the quality of our blades) I would ignore the products completely. If they lie about one aspect that is enough for me.

To be clear, I am not talking about performance limits, but the safe working range, ie. "bends to 40 and returns to true", not "breaks at 60".

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 23 December 1999).]
 
I think this is a good thread. And a good oppurtunity for me to make clear about the flexibility of my knives. They are not very flexible. The are rigid. The wharncliffes, and some of the other thin models may flex some, but they are very hard. I do not reccomend them for prying of any kind. If you lock them in a vise, and bend them, they will break. My knives don't make good screw drivers, pry bars, throwing knives. They are not designed for such, and more to the point, they have not been heat treated with those points in mind. I think they make excellent cutters, and my customers seem to agree.


Thanks,

------------------
Lynn Griffith-Knifemaker

griffithknives.com
GriffithKN@aol.com
Available Knives
 
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