Traditional design, new steels?

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Jul 2, 2000
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Ever notice that traditionally-designed swords tend to be made of simpler materials, while the newer high alloys, particularly CPM stuff is pretty much reserved to contemporary pieces?

I understand that the aesthetic pleasantries we find in more traditional-style swords won't be found in the newer alloys, but wouldn't it be an interesting thing to try? Personally, I would find a CPM sword with superb shaping (crisp lines, no wobbles or dips, spectacular edge) to be quite sexy ;)

I guess most people who do traditional designs are more accustomed to yakiire style of heat treat, which probably does not work the same way for these new steels. In addition, I guess most of them forge, and the higher alloys seem to not be very popular for forging. Cost may also be another hindrance, and so on....

I guess I can see why it's not really used, but I'm wondering if anyone has given it some thought.

Most of you who know me understand that I love simple steels in swords, so I'm not insulting them in the least! I think I would really enjoy seeing something in a new steel.
 
Yes, it would be interesting. However, CPM kind of steel might not be suitable for cutting material. They are hard, but too hard that they are easy to break. I haven't broken any swords before though, I am just talking from a friend's experience who broke his Marto katana during a tameshigiri. It was an experiment on how suitable 440 C is used for tameshigiri.

Swords made of modern steel such as CPM S30V will look very nice, but not useable for hacking. Slicing ? Definitely.

Don't forget, the super steel L6 is a modern steel :p
 
Hey Beluga,

I don't want to be insulting or anything, but I think you might fall under a common misconception of what makes steel "good" or "bad"

Just because a Marto sword made of 440C does not withstand cutting stress, that does not stop Mr. Dawson from making swords out of it that are quite tough and usable. We usually will not promote 440C or any such steel when advising buyers who are looking for an out-of-the-box sword, because 420J2 and 440C are very commonly mentioned as being used in crappy quality swords!

Also, Howard Clark's L6 blades are not spectacular because they are of L6, or that L6 is a new fantastic alloy...it's because Howard Clark has a particular kind of heat treat that allows his swords to be comprised of bainite body with hard martensite edge. This can be done with other steels like 5160 too, but I think L6 has properties that probably make it easier to do it well or consistently.

Jerry Hossom uses CPM3V in his longer blades now and while I don't know from experience (just giving ya poo Jerry ;)), his swords are said to be *very* durable and good at what they do. With this example, I have no reason to believe that a good traditionally designed blade would be weak.

A common thought associated with high alloy = bad is because alloying elements like chromium that you find plentiful in stainless conventionally act as grain boundaries, which is thought to be detrimental to the overall integrity of the steel. However, there are good quality long blades being made of 440C and other steels, albeit by custom makers who know how to utilize their steel well. With CPM steels, you don't even have bands of alloying elements forming grain boundaries...so that excuse probably doesn't carry much if any weight.

So really, I don't think "strength" would be an issue at all if it was done right. Of course, that's assuming it would be done right if someone tried it....

I can see several reasons for it not being used in a traditionally shaped sword, but I personally doubt that durability or edge holding are on that list of reasons.
 
Hmmm, I don't recall in which part I said which steel is bad or good.

I'm just saying, stainless steel might not be suitable for cutting (with sword of course).

I'm also saying that a friend of mine was experimenting cutting a rolled mat with Marto sword (the blade is 440C). I was there watching him when the Marto broke. While the Kris Cutlery sword (made of carbon steel, I think 1095 - not sure) only bended. As you know, in bended sword, the damage can be repaired unlike broken sword. That's what I mean by suitable or not suitable. Not because one steel has better edge holding than the other.

BTW, he cut with the 'wrong' tehcnique to prove his point.

Again, I am not saying which steel is good/bad. :)

With this example, I have no reason to believe that a good traditionally designed blade would be weak.

I agree. But design is not the only major factor contributing to a sword strength. Material matters most IMHO.

Example; would you say that a sword made of titanium with traditional design is stronger than a sword made of stainless steel with modern design ? I wouldn't.

Unless if you are saying 'traditionally designed blade' including 'traditional material'. Traditional material would be iron ore, not steel.

Also, Howard Clark's L6 blades are not spectacular because they are of L6, or that L6 is a new fantastic alloy...it's because Howard Clark has a particular kind of heat treat that allows his swords to be comprised of bainite body with hard martensite edge. This can be done with other steels like 5160 too, but I think L6 has properties that probably make it easier to do it well or consistently.

Yes, it's true. I mentioned L6 because it falls under our discussion as a modern steel. I never said that L6 is the best (or 440C is the worst).

Again, I'm not saying which steel is bad/good. What I said is only from my limited experience only.

Cheers
 
I think you got the wrong idea from my post. What I'm saying is that it's not the material itself. 440C is not necessarily unsuitable, but it is unsuitable when it is poorly made and poorly heat treated, which is the case with most every factory made 440 sword out there.

Also, KC swords I believe are 5160, but I could be mistaken. If it's annealed 5160 or left full hard, it will probably fall under the "unsuitable steel" category.

When I said you were making an assumption about what makes a steel good or bad, I mean suitable or unsuitable.

Stainless is not a single quantity. There are many types of stainless, and I already gave a quick overview of why some people feel it's "unsuitable."

There are very usable 440C swords, and there are very usable CPM swords. I feel that is without question. However, there are no very usable CPM traditionally-styled swords, or anything like that. I don't know much about s30v or 420/440v, but I do know that some feel that 3v is more than adequate. But this type of material is restricted to non-traditional pieces so far.

And as an edit...traditional would be tamahagane, which is a steel. Swords were not forged from iron ore.

OH and sorry if I didn't clarify that I was talking specifically about Japanese style! If there's any Euro or other types of sword fans who might have read this wrong, sorry for any confusion. However, I won't say non-Japanese styles aren't welcome in this discussion :)
 
I too used to pooh-pooh on the thought of stainless steel swords. That was until i saw and in fact used a 440C Wak by one of the Jones brothers in a cutting test. It held up just as well as any of the 1050,1084, and 5160 choppers we had there that day. It's all in the heat treat.
 
I usually stay out of these discussions because they are a lot like sex, politics and religion - more emotions than knowledge, as in most everything Mr Beluga has stated in this thread. I think it's a little naive to think that modern metallurgy hasn't overtaken medieval art to some degree. For every 440C sword that has snapped in an impact, there are many more carbon steel blades that have also snapped. A solitary failure or even many failures simply doesn't define the state of the art in anything. Your friend broke a 440C sword during tameshigiri? A great many Japanese swords have been broken during tameshgiri, and vast number of them bent. In fact if done properly, tameshigiri should not impart sufficient lateral stress on a sword to break it. You might at worst chip an edge if the steel is excessively brittle, but the lateral force needed to break an even moderately well tempered 440C sword would certainly bend a fine traditional katana.

"Swords made of modern steel such as CPM S30V will look very nice, but not useable for hacking"

On what are you basing this statement? S30V will not "look" any better than any other high carbon steel blade. It doesn't polish well at all. Its distinction lies in its fine grain structure that gives the steel its unusual toughness. That it will slice better than it hacks is entirely dependent on the geometry of the blade and the edge, and has little or nothing to do with composition.

This can be an interesting and, I believe, constructive thread, but not if people want to pile on here with unfounded hearsay or express biases they haven't personally tested. I have a friend who "hacked" through some material with an S30V blade that blew the edge out of a differentially tempered blade made by a master smith. What does that prove? Nothing. Well, it actually proves that the master smith made his blade for purposes other than hacking that particular matertial. Had he wanted to make a blade to do so he certainly could have.

Is CPM-3V capable of making a sword which will survive demanding tests or even armed combat?

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002184.html

Unless you think the sword "sliced" rather than "hacked" through that beef bone and bamboo, I think it is.

With respect to the bigger question of can a sword, made of moden materials, perform as well as an outstanding traditional weapon made by traditional techniques? I think the answer is yes. But the modern sword must IMO be made with a geometry that best suits the specific steel and the specific tasks to which it will be applied. In other words I think the whole undertaking needs to be rethought from the raw steel up.

It would be nice to get some other views expressed here. Great subject RObert.
 
I wrote this earlier but I lost connection...

It might be a good idea to look at even modern high-performance "traditional-style" swords being made. Some features you may notice is that they tend to be rather thin compared to older pieces, and many pieces have somewhat flatter cross-sections. This often makes for light, fast swords that have very crisp edges and can more easily cut targets like tatami-omote.

This brings up the old question of what characteristics make a good sword. The most specific answer would be that swords and expectations of them are shaped within cultural contexts, but let's expand this into a broad sense...I'll list a few simplified things that I think make for a good sword off the top of my head, but the list may be far from complete. In no particular order:

Weight: A good sword must have sufficient substance to make it more than a sharp feather. At the same time, it must be of reasonable weight to be comfortable to use. It is benefitted further with balance.

Balance: A good sword needs correct weight distribution. If the center of gravity is too far out, it will cause you wrist strain over long periods of time. It will not be comfortable to use. If the balance is too far in, the blade will feel too insubstantial and lack any power, while the handle will contain most all of the heft and feel awkward.

Handle Ergonomics: The handle is more than a "stick" that you use to hold onto the sword. It should be comfortable for the user. It should lend itself to changing positions when applicable, and not lock the fingers into certain spots, which may become uncomfortable in different stances or cuts.

Blade Shape/Cross section: The shape of a good sword will allow it to cut well, while offering sufficient strength and rigidity to the piece. Depending on your sword style and the intended usage, this will vary. It is also one of the more complex aspects of the sword.

Flexibility: Optimally, no sword should break until an extreme amount of force is applied to it. To avoid breakage, a good number of old swords were more than willing to bend like taffy. However, excellent blades of all time periods would resist bending to a good degree. The way some talk, it would sound as if this is the only real measure of performance.

Edge Retention: Some may not feel that a very sharp edge is important. However, a good sword should cut well because it has an edge capable of cutting, not because it has a mild edge and enough weight to push it through. Thrusting swords might not benefit from a sharp edge quite as much, but I believe it is helpful all the same. I feel that many people underestimate the durability of a well made sharp edge with the right geometry--even for chopping. I think a real sword should take and hold a good edge, so I add edge retention to the list.

Harmonics: This topic has fluctuated in popularity, though I think most people understand the basics of it now. Good swords often use harmonic balancing to minimize vibration at the handle and at the sweet spot of the blade, so that cutting effectiveness is not hindered, nor will the grip quickly loosen because of vibration. This is an issue in some swords more than others.

Intangibles: Many people feel there are qualities that are not expressed merely through physical characteristics (feel, livelihood, spirit, etc). Some identify these as combinations of positive physical factors, but I will include them here to give credit to those who feel that way.

I'm sure there are more, so this list is not exhaustive in any way. However, would you say that factors such as these are common in identifying "high performance" swords of numerous styles? What are the main contributors to these characteristics? I would guess that design and heat treat are the most direct influences.

Steel is a funny topic. Many things said about steel come from the perspective of factory-made blades, or the results a few makers have had with particular steels. Makers who are capable of doing what they want can routinely make "exceptions" to the "rules" of what steels are good or bad, suitable or unsuitable. I use Jerry as an example, because he made/makes swords of 3v that are supposedly rather good (so I hear, I haven't held one in person :p). There are people who make high quality 440C swords and still the sword community tends to dismiss it entirely! Could that be because those swords do not use traditional style or design? Possibly...

I'd like to see a quasi-traditional katana or other type of blade in 3V or other new steel for a lot of reasons, but a new one is just to show people that it can be done, and possibly work very well! Maybe in the future something like this will happen. However, its impact on the sword community would be questionable...sigh.
 
I think you arent seeing it because the steels you mentioned just wont hold up any hope of performing as good as plainer steels. for knives they may work just fine, but swords are a completly different physics and metalurgy.
When you add the fact that you can add the goodies in the forgiving plain steels, its waaaaaaaay apparent.

And people dont swing any sword(meaning something of length) made of a stainless steel at anything unless you have a good life insurance plan, it only takes that little flex and torque to cause you to loose a limb, for the stainless stuff.
Joe Renner
 
sorry but swords are in fact a perforance matter, and some steels just cant shake a stick at other ones, for certain needs.
It has been mentioned, that youd be doing something different, just keep in mind theres a bunch of people do the sam different thing :rolleyes: .
 
Go read the above link where one of my 3V swords was tested. I could have produced a blade to deliver the same results with S30V stainless or probably even 154CM for that matter. I very well understand what steel performance is all about. When you show independent testing that achieves the same level performance as my blades have demonstrated then you can think about criticizing the steels I use.
 
Hey Joe Renner...as a user/collector I have cut with my Bob Engnath M.A.S, with a Barry Dawson katana and full tang stainless steel katana and these have compared to my Cold Steel and Paul Chen katanas and a heavy cutting gunto a friend owns...as you know it comes down to heat treatment...with what I do I am only interested for the most part in hard facts not what we have been told for years on end with no concrete evidence ya sure there is junk stainless out there but the same can be said will any primary used sword steels today...I would love to see these makers with talent taking alloys, stainless or whatever that is the not the norm to new levels or performance..."people dont swing any sword(meaning something of length) made of a stainless steel at anything unless you have a good life insurance plan, it only takes that little flex and torque to cause you to loose a limb, for the stainless stuff" are you talking about the famous ebay stuff or talking about what some of the custom makers are producing?
here is an old pic of my stainless Engnath M.A.S that I purchased in 95' from Bob at the BAKCA for $190
sweet-73.jpg
 
Sweet, I think it can perform if made right, thats not the issue really. Its all the logic of "good enough" that I do not like.
Jerry, its not you material I critisize, as much as your approach.
No more need be said, we dont agree. And something tells me you dont care(if you do you picked the wrong buisness to be in), nor do I, it really is that simple. More than one person, more than one ideal.
 
Joe, I didn't criticize what you do or what you're using. You're the one finding fault here. Where did the notion of "good enough" come from? Not me! I believe CPM-3V is the best sword blade steel made. CPM-1V might be better, but I don't know that yet.
 
Robert, there are a number of makers who come from different perspectives in the blade making art and are working together quite well and productively. Such tension as exists is generally confined to the sword arena where the biases appear most entrenched. In the end, it is the customer who chooses, and he bases that choice on the information, or lack thereof, available to him. So long as varying opinions are unwelcome, his choices are narrowed.

In this instance, you asked an intelligent question, but the responses have tended to reflect mostly hearsay and ignorance of modern metallurgy.

Is there life after 5160, 1084 and L6? Maybe... :D

{Robert, you posted, to which I wrote this response, then your post vanished! Not fair! :) }
 
Sorry about that :) As of late I have been withdrawing and rethinking things that I sometimes say, so that my ideas are better clarified, or--in some instances--left out altogether.
 
Originally posted by Jerry Hossom
Joe, I didn't criticize what you do or what you're using. You're the one finding fault here. Where did the notion of "good enough" come from? Not me! I believe CPM-3V is the best sword blade steel made. CPM-1V might be better, but I don't know that yet.
I dont think you are the good enough type, its just when consumers want something made of something the "good enough??" thougts come out, and its not always good enough for every maker.
I dont think there is a best steel, though occasionally people come by what is best for them.
Anyway, agree to disagree on past issues?
(outstretching hand) Shake?

Joe
 
Jerry,
how do you think the modern steels would compare to traditional steels in terms of impact and edge retention?
i know i read elsewhere from you that you feel edge geometry will make a very significant difference in cutting, too, yes?

please tell me

i love my swords and my knives... do you ever make tantos with a less modern 'look' and style?

form follows function... ninjitsu shows the way!

Tam
 
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