Traditional patterns made old school, made new school... a friendly discussion....

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

Obviously we know that advancements in just about any field is a fact of life. Traditional knives was the subject between a friend of mine and I. We discussed how even a knife made fifty years ago, likely was made with some advancements in manufacturing that were not in place fifty years before. And the knife made 100 years ago, likely was made with some advancements not available fifty years before that. The commonality would be the basic traditional design. For our conversation, we stuck with traditional patterned slipjoints. We brought the conversation to today's knives, and how some, like the US made Queen & GEC, are being made using mostly older manufacturing methods, while an imported Colt knife is likely made with as much modern methods as possible, but maintaining the traditional pattern flair. Then, Case was brought into the mix, with them being traditional in pattern, but having a mix of old school and new school method of being manufactured.
When we discussed the hundred plus year old knives, we spoke how they were made using hammer forged blades, but 50+ years later, similar knives were then being made using stamped steel blades. We covered how the differences in manufacturing continued, making it easier to produce, saving on manpower, cutting overall costs. This was not seen as a bad thing, as long as the end product was comparable in quality, and sometimes may have even improved it (obviously not the case in all aspects when cost cutting happened). So, the manufacturing evolved... we discussed how we both liked specimens that were made old school, and new school. We discussed what we felt were pros and cons. We both agreed to having soft spots for knives that had more hands on craftsmanship, but also agreed that the end product being well made was also very important to us. So, we would rather have a modern made traditional, than a handmade, but poorly assembled traditional. It was a great discussion that led us to discussing costs, and how it is possible today to purchase great quality traditional patterned (but made using modern methods) knives, for much less than traditional knives having more old school manufacturing.
Then the Case thing again, that mixture that still includes a bit more hands on, but no longer true old school made. My collection houses a bit of both, and that's how I want it, but I think that traditionally made will continue to fall to wayside, in an effort to stay viable in pricing. Custom was not included in our discussions, simply sticking with factory produced knives. In any case, it really was a great discussion that I felt would be great to share some of here, and maybe spark some more friendly discussion amongst us here... Looking forward to reading your views and opinions on this complicated subject

Here is the last display I filled.. all traditional, but some made using old school, some new school, and some with a good mix of both...

 

[street soldier]

Interesting conversation, Jimmy.
I looked up both traditional and modern in an online dictionary, and posted the relevant definitions below:

Traditional: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction.
Modern: involving recent techniques, methods, or ideas : up-to-date.

I think we need to differentiate between "traditional knives", "traditionally made knives", and "knives made in a modern fashion patterned after those of our forebears".
This is how I see it:
Traditional knives: these are the knives that originated back in that bygone time that I think most of us wished still existed. A time when all knives were handmade, cutlers crouched over their workbenches, hammers peening rivets into place, sharpening blades by hand. I think it's a testament to their skill that so many of these knives still exist today. I look at these old knives and I'm transported back to an era of simplicity, into one of Carl's stories, of sitting by a creek with a line in the water.
Traditionally made knives: these knives are a direct homage to the traditional knife. Modern techniques are used to build these knives, the extent of which varies by company, but there is a handmade element as well. Modern steels and materials are used. The fit and finish are generally excellent, and these knives, properly cared for, should last its user for many years and probably be passed down to future generations.
Knives made in a modern fashion: these are your mass produced traditional knife, your imports and such. Almost completely machine made, it seems that quantity takes precedence over quality. Cheaper materials are used, and the fit and finish are not always the greatest. While they are constructed to follow a traditional pattern or look, they are soulless. Just some metal that has been put together, sharpened, and offered for sale.
Now, what does this all mean?
To the average person in the street, who just needs a knife to cut something, the "knife made in the modern fashion patterned after our forebears" will suffice. They need a knife to cut something, and don't care if it doesn't stay sharp, or falls apart quickly. It was cheap enough that they'll just throw it out and buy another one. There is no attachment to it, no feeling of loss if it gets damaged or misplaced.
The other two categories, traditional knives and modern traditional knives, are the ones that are important and relevant to those of us here in this forum. We appreciate a well made knife, and recognize it as an essential tool that aids us in everyday tasks. These knives transport us back to that bygone era where, to quote Carl, "if a man had his pants on, he had a knife."
I think by carrying a traditional knife we are paying homage to those that came before us and did so much with so little. We are carrying on the tradition set forth by our forebears and using the right tool for the right job.
The materials used in the construction of these knives brings back fond memories for some, or wistful longing for a bygone era to others.

John

I hope some of this makes sense. Minimal sleep, a computer and keyboard can be a bad combination.

 

[stevomiller]

I think AG Russell's Chinese made traditionals are the best representation of how modern mfg can IMPROVE mass produced quality over what came before. Definitely no lack of precision, etc on them. I' like to ask him if their contractor water jets, laser cuts, or press blanks the blades, springs, and liners.

 

[meako]

Design,Materials, Marketing,Advertising, Research and Development- all integral to the production process that keep the manufacturers alive and in business.
Not to mention politics.
Politics?
I said not to mention politics!
I think traditionals have survived long enough to prove themselves and will continue into the future.
If I had to choose between something along the lines of "the latest NASA space knife"(yes I made that up as a generalisation) and a GEC or similar it would be the GEC for me. I have no doubt the space age counterpart would also find its niche.
We have to try out new ideas if only to reinforce old ones.

thought provoking thread PKJ
cheers

 

[Bob6794]

They can change the way it's made but keep the quality high and I am completely fine with that. From a business point of view it be unwise not to exploit technology if it works in your favor and there are little to no downsides.

If company "A" makes a great knife for $75 and uses the older traditional methods to make which drives up the costs. But company "B" makes an identical knife of the same quality/pattern/etc for $25 and exploits the lattest and greatest technology advancements I am going to be buying from company "B". And I probably won't be buying just 1 knife but 3 from them. To me it's a why spend more if your getting the same quality goods.

That's my very basic view of this. I like the end product, how you get there is of little concern to me.

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

My own collection consisting of specinens of all the currently made flavors (traditionally made methods, mix of traditionally made and modern manufacturing methods, and mostly modern manufacturing methods)... I find well made specimens can be had from all the above. I do admit to having a bit more fondness for specimens that I know had more hands on work/craftsmanship... but all can be done nicely when the manufacturers put in the effort. I have been both disappointed and impressed by the results of all the manufacturing methods.

Here are some nice specimens of knives I have that are made using some of the different manufacturing methods... they all looking great side by side each other, and not looking out of place... all being traditional patterned knives

The congress pattern knife in this photo is a Bulldog Brand that was made about as old school as is done in modern times. It even has forged blades and a pinned in shield.
Below it is a Queen Cutlery Doctor's pattern knife with pinned in shield, but stamped out blades. Both these knives are in the catagory of being traditional in pattern and traditional in how they were manufactured.

In this photo we see a couple current manufacture Case knives (a Canoe and a Mini Trapper). These do have more automation involved during their production, but still have hands on craftmanship too.... These are a good representation of both new and old manufacturing methods blended together... execution on both are very good. The biggest issue I have with these, and actually many of the more traditional method made knives of today as well, are the glued in shields... phooey with that!

And here the top pictured knife being a Colt brand Hawkbill Pruner that was likely made with as many cost saving advancements as is possible to make a traditionally patterned knife, yet the execution is very well done. It is pictured here next to a much more traditionally made Queen Copperhead, but looks right at home next to it.

We have to remember that even some of our most traditionally made modern day made knives, have had some advancements in manufacturing added to them. For instance, forged blades are extinct in the factory made traditional pocket knives made in the USA (stamped blades being the norm for many, many decades). Spun in scale pins are pretty standard now, over old school hammed in place. There are other little things here and there that are common place today, that were not done or even available to be done 100 to 150 years ago. So you good folks having those old school made originals that were made back in the day, are truly holding old school in every sense of that word

 

[T. Erdelyi]

Subscribed, I'll chime in later.