Trail Clearing Fun

H

hollowdweller

Joined
Sep 22, 2003
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When I got my first HI khuk years ago it was because I feel like they are really ideal for trail clearing.

I don't care for the very heavy HI Khuks and prefer the ones that can be easily carried on the belt and are light enough to both swing at non woody vegetation and trees up to around 7"

Well over time all the trails in my woods were so cleared out I sort of sat them aside and didn't use them much. But lately time to break them out AGAIN.

So Sat I went out to clear some of my favorite hiking trail.


For this journey I took one of my favorite designs the HI Bonecutter. The original Bonecutter (on top) was a very forward heavy chopper made by GK Khuks. When GK went out of business HI customers had HI make some of them, however the HI model is difft in that it has a full tang. This one is around 15, 16" and 25 oz. For woods work my ideal khuk is under 27 oz.

karka.jpg


My first target was a 6 or 7" persimmon that had fallen across the trail. My chopping technique involves if possible opening up a notch on both sides and then coming down from the top.

This section of trail is goes very steeply diagonally up a hillside so I want to put the cut tree on the dowhill side of the trail, hopefully supported by some standing trees. This allows any dirt or leaves that are going downhill to be stopped by the cut tree and sort of levels out the trail over time.

khukpers1.jpg


Notice the hour glass sort of cut on the above tree.

Tree in place:

khukpers2.jpg


Next was a small hickory. Here's a before and after:

khukhic1.jpg


Notice the cut, not as hour glass because I had to cut it above the trail and couldn't stand over it. Still I used a similar technique.

khukhic2.jpg


Cleared and in place:

khukhic3.jpg


Next was a steep uphill with some saplings. Before and after. Notice I have some cool trail arrows I bought on one of the trees. They are reflective so when I hike this at night I can stay on the trail when it's ambiguous

khukuphill.jpg

khukuphill2.jpg


The good news s the path was cleared. The bad news was the Sargent Karka took a beating.

The tip had some chips but this is normal. I normally keep the edge angle of the tip a bit thicker so it is less likely to chip hitting the dirt or other things.

khukchip2.jpg


I consider that normal. However if you look at the one pic where it is by the hickory for scale and this one the sweet spot also got a really bad chip.

khukchip1.jpg


One thing I have noticed about Sgt Karka's khuks is while his khuks seem to have an extremly high degree of finish and workmanship, he tends to harden them to the point of brittleness sometimes. This chip is a little over 1/8" in it's deepest point and a little over 1/4" long. Right in the sweet spot.

I'll probably retire this one but it's signifigant to note that this khuk was a replacement for the same model that chipped even worse in exactly the same place.

I have 2 other khuks by Karka that have not chipped but they have thicker edges so while they don't chop as well the brittleness is not so much of a factor. Still on my other 2 tapping them with a file you can hear that the steel sounds a little over tempered.

Probably my favorite and toughest blades are some 17" 23 oz Ganga Rams that are made by Bura. He has the very fine edge but, at least on the older ones his tempering tended to be on the softer side so if it hit something really hard it usually bent and could be pounded back into shape. I'll probably take my Bura Ganga Ram out next!
 
This is the original chipped one on top and the other I chipped this weekend on the bottom. (pic was before I chipped the bottom one)

71511179.jpg
 
Thanks for sharing your detailed analysis. It's very interesting to hear and read about the different "challenges" individual Khuks have out in the real world.
 
hollowdweller said:
This is the original chipped one on top and the other I chipped this weekend on the bottom. (pic was before I chipped the bottom one)
Click to expand...


I think i should be noted that the previous chipped Bonecutter was replaced by Yangdu under warranty, if i'm remembering correctly. Feel free to correct me HD, if thats not the case....

This also brings to mind something i read on another forum awhile back and have been pondering.

It has to do with the effects of torque on the edge of the blade when chopping. Sometimes when we are chopping we get tired, our technique suffers or our technique is such that it causes us to move our arms horizontally during the striking phase. With the blade edge buried in the wood during the force of the strike, the lateral movement of the blade from the handle could be causing chunks to be ripped out. We are talking massive forces at impact.....It seems to me this is quite plausible and would indicate more problems with technique and nothing to do with manufacturing defects. My own experience seems to bear this out. I have a few in my collection that were returned for damage to the edge. Once i put a new edge on them and tested them out i have not had any problems with them during chopping or batonning.
 
KARDA
I think i should be noted that the previous chipped Bonecutter was replaced by Yangdu under warranty, if i'm remembering correctly. Feel free to correct me HD, if thats not the case....
Click to expand...

Karda,

You are 100% correct. That's what I meant when I referred to the second one as a replacement.

KARDA:With the blade edge buried in the wood during the force of the strike, the lateral movement of the blade from the handle could be causing chunks to be ripped out. We are talking massive forces at impact.....It seems to me this is quite plausible and would indicate more problems with technique and nothing to do with manufacturing defects.
Click to expand...

Karda,

You are 50% right

It is impossible to chop in an efficient manner w/o lateral stress on a blade, especially a khukuri where the blade is curved.

You cannot cut a log in half with anything but a saw by bringing the blade down perpendicular to what you are cutting.

You have to come down at an angle with any chopping implement in order to cut something in half.

In a properly tempered tool this is not a problem.

With a tool that is too brittle you get chipping of the edge and with a tool that is too soft you get bends.

All of Karka's stuff I've had tends toward the brittle. 2 out of 4 have chipped. That's half. I have a some khuks that are nearly 10 made by Bura that have
been used on much toughter stuff w/o incident. Not the technique. Just my foolishness in knowing that Karkas blades are brittle and then using them on something tough. I should have pulled out one of my Buras.
 
hollowdweller said:
Karda,

You are 100% correct. That's what I meant when I referred to the second one as a replacement.



Karda,

You are 50% right

It is impossible to chop in an efficient manner w/o lateral stress on a blade, especially a khukuri where the blade is curved.

You cannot cut a log in half with anything but a saw by bringing the blade down perpendicular to what you are cutting.

You have to come down at an angle with any chopping implement in order to cut something in half.

In a properly tempered tool this is not a problem.

With a tool that is too brittle you get chipping of the edge and with a tool that is too soft you get bends.

All of Karka's stuff I've had tends toward the brittle. 2 out of 4 have chipped. That's half. I have a some khuks that are nearly 10 made by Bura that have
been used on much toughter stuff w/o incident. Not the technique. Just my foolishness in knowing that Karkas blades are brittle and then using them on something tough. I should have pulled out one of my Buras.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about angled cuts. I'm talking about lateral movement at the strike and in the retrieval. You don't see this in hatchets/axes because they are so thick, but using a khukuri in the same manner with it's thinner edge would create forces beyond what even a properly tempered steel could withstand. As it all happens in a split second, the user may not even be aware of the lateral movement. I suspect that at least a few failures are due to this.
 
Karda said:
I'm not talking about angled cuts. I'm talking about lateral movement at the strike and in the retrieval. You don't see this in hatchets/axes because they are so thick, but using a khukuri in the same manner with it's thinner edge would create forces beyond what even a properly tempered steel could withstand. As it all happens in a split second, the user may not even be aware of the lateral movement. I suspect that at least a few failures are due to this.
Click to expand...


I'll put up some pictures in the next couple of days but the edge on those 2 khuks is not any thinner than any of my GB hatchets or my Reeves hatchet.
 
Thanks for the great report Hollow. I have several of Sgt. Khadka's blades and love the traditional bolster and excellent handles and workmanship overall, better than any other knife really, but agree his knives are harder and less forgiving to the edge. For a lighter fighting knife, or smaller knives like the little dhankutas and biltons and 13-14" Balances he started with this isn't a problem, but on the bigger knives it can be.

I also know from reading your postings for years that you go after some very hard wood, and probably have chopped more in real-world applications than the rest of us combined.

Like you my favorite choppers (in addition to the 18" Balance which is fantastic) are Baby Ganga Rams by Bura that run 17.25" and 27 oz. No chiruwa tangs to add weight or vibration, and hit like a ton. They are well hardened and durable. I also have a couple 15" 20 oz. Villagers by Sher that seem sharper. (Although I did have one very well done Chiruwa BGRS by Bura, that felt great, so my tang preference above is clearly variable! But even with the chiruwa tang Bura still kept it at 17.25" and 27 oz. so it was both chiruwa-strong and handy. That was the only Chiruwa BGRS I have ever seen before or since and was passed on a few years ago.)

I've only used one bonecutter and that was on an 8" aspen though, not a very hard wood, and had no problems.

If I could sit down with the kamis and speak with them I would ask two things:

1) Why, when you're there with the red hot blade in your left hand and the teapot in your right, don't you harden the edge completely from cho to tip? Why just the sweet spot?, and

2) Why, before final buffing and sharpening and sending the knife to the Sarki to fit the scabbard, and blessing it and boxing it up to ship 12,000 miles to be resold and then shipped again all over the world, don't you spend 30 seconds 'round back whacking it on a log? Then if it holds up you can polish it up and give it a final sharpening and send it off knowing it's been tested and approved?

It would seem that would save a lot of time down the road...!

Best,


Norm
 
hollowdweller said:
I'll put up some pictures in the next couple of days but the edge on those 2 khuks is not any thinner than any of my GB hatchets or my Reeves hatchet.
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The Kukri's (and Kukri-like objects) I have from Condor, Cold Steel, Ka-Bar, Knifeware (Blackjack II) and original Blackjack all have edges as thin or quite a bit thinner than edges found on all HI knives except the Farm Knife (and from what I've seen and read online, never owned one), the Tamang. The only variable is hardening.

I'll bet Sgt. Khadka has forgotten more about making quality knives than most people know, and HI has his exclusive services; just looks like he or one of his helpers simply got the blade too hot and tempered it too much in a couple of cases. (?)
 
I'm wondering if I take this one and simply grind off about 1/8" if I'd get back into a part of the blade that is less brittle.

Savashtar,

I think Sgt K actually hardens a longer section of the edge than a LOT of the others I have owned. But a bit more "brittley"

I've never had a balance.

I'm so so on the Chirwa tang. A while back I picked up a YCS not one of the originals but a recent one, and unlike most recent ones it was not Chiruwa.

It was really about the same size as the 2 lb ones but without the full tang it weighed 27 I think and hit really hard.
 
Hollow,

I agree on the YCS; I have an 18" wood/horn checkerboard YCS which is a std. full tang and right at 27 oz. and handles beautifully. (The only way it could possibly be improved is to give it a std. bolster as the others have.) I have others that run from 18 to 18.5 inch and from 32 to 38 oz, with Chiruwa tangs. The lighter ones at 18.5 and 32 are very well balanced, while the 38 oz. is a bit too heavy. I know the exposed pinned tangs make them stronger, but as with all things there's a trade off.

Two favorite Chiruwa tang knives are a bulletproof 16.5" CAK at 26 oz. by Kumar, and a 17" 30 oz. CAK by Sgt. K; both handle very well. I've had a couple of CAK's that could have been hardened a bit more, but never came close to damaging one.

Best,

Norm
 
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HD, Looks like you had a good time clearing trails. Bummers about your Khukri. If you decide that you want it repaired and need help, let me know.
 
hollowdweller said:
I'm wondering if I take this one and simply grind off about 1/8" if I'd get back into a part of the blade that is less brittle.
Click to expand...

yeah, i imagine that will "sharpen out" and give you stronger steel behind the initial very thin/hard edge - i tend to think of such edges as a super wire edge ;) remove it, and bam, better steel a little ways in. convex it, and bob's your uncle in metaphorical sense.

in my experience so far, chips that end up being semi-circular, are from shockwave patterns at strike (very much like sonic booms); Toooj over at KaBar has a nice write up about it somewhere. indeed, it could be from lateral stresses, but NOT from user error; more likely from materials with differences in grain, or very hard knots (esp silicate knots). this is basically unavoidable on some materials like firs and such if you hit knots, junctures, and what not. esp frozen. it's akin to knapping flint. conchoidal fractures. in very hard metal, or other conditions, you get these chip blow outs.

general conclusion: metal usually too hard/brittle (or tough enough), combined with something in the wood that was effectively harder than the metal. result? metal loses. it's not even what we'd call a failure per se, just life, and indication that knife might be made tougher. such a thing should be covered by warranty at all times though. 5160 is very tough. should never do that.

lateral striking? er, what? i can't even imagine how that would be possible, barring a really horrible off axis chop. it's possible, i suppose, in a theoretical fashion, but honestly i've NEVER heard this posited anywhere before. as well, not likely not the cause with an experienced user like Hollowdweller :> he chops more than some of us walk.

the most common thing i've seen for causing this: someone attempting to force blade through horribly knotted or tangled wood. THEN you get lateral forces. imho, that's abuse. which doesn't seem to be the case here.

ragged chips? or bends? or tears? that usually indicates other failure modes, discussion for a rainy day.

imho :)
 
hollowdweller said:
I'm so so on the Chirwa tang. A while back I picked up a YCS not one of the originals but a recent one, and unlike most recent ones it was not Chiruwa.

It was really about the same size as the 2 lb ones but without the full tang it weighed 27 I think and hit really hard.
Click to expand...

mmm, yeah, well, blame me for the Chiruwa... i specified that when i helped with the design effort. i wanted bullet proof blade. the two that i have seem pretty lively for their sizes.

having cracked a few rat tails, i really didn't want that happening with what i consider my heirloom choppers :)

plus, i have the simpler option of putting on micarta or something down the road.
 
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