Trainer Knives - do They Undermine Knives as Tools?

C

cut finger

Joined
Sep 20, 1999
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178
I was glancing at an article in Knives Illustrated last night about trainer versions of popular folders like the Griptillian and Endura. It then occured to me that the existence of trainers could be used to argue that the regular models of such knives are really weapons and not tools since non-functional replicas are made with the express purpose of use for training in knife fighting. I think a DA could really sway a jury with this fact. What do you guys think about this possibility. I think that this could also be a potential source of mnajor liability for companies like Syderco and Benchmade also.
 
There are trainers for the Endura and Griptillian? Wow, those two knives are PURE utility, not combat knives. They shouldn't make trainers out of utility knives, that isn't necesary. They don't need a trainer for every model they make. It does denote their knives as all being "combat" knives.
 
The counter argument would simply be that one must use a substitute whenever engaging in a particularly dangerous activity using an object with a sharp edge. Pilots start out in simulators. Drivers have supervision and sometimes those cool cars with two steering wheels. The concept of "training" is making any activity safer than it would otherwise be as a margin for error, regardless of the objects or items involved.
 
As Mick Strider has always said:

Anything in the hands is a tool, Anything in the brain is a weapon.

With that being said. What might be a tool to you, just might be a defense tool for someone else. So way not make a trainer for those that choose to use it as such.

Brian
 
I don't have problem with trainers per se. Trainers for models like the Gunting and Civilian make perfect sense because they are not utility knives in any way. The problem, to me is like PhoulPlae stated, in that making trainers for knives that had been marketed as utility models tends to belie their actual purpose.
 
You guys are getting too politically correct for me.

Fight back. It's your God given right to defend yourself. Don't apologize to sheeple for being prepared.

Be a gentleman, be discrete, be considerate of others but if the goblins come to hurt you or yours use that SAK, or Griptilian, or Busse to get some.

Part of being a gentleman is knowing how to use weapons and not using them unless you need to save a life, yours included.

"Take a life to save a life." Old Samurai saying.
 
Here’s another thought on the trainer issue.....

We actually sell some to dealers who put them out on a countertop for customers. Say you have someone come into your shop who is not familiar with knives or comfortable handling a folder. What better way to initiate them to one-hand open/close folders than to put a non-sharpened knife into their hand and let them practice before handing them something sharp.

IMHO trainers are not designed specifically for ‘knife fighting’ training but for many types of practice.

A great weekend to y’all

Joyce @ Spyderco
 
Originally posted by PhoulPlae
There are trainers for the Endura and Griptillian? Wow, those two knives are PURE utility, not combat knives. They shouldn't make trainers out of utility knives, that isn't necesary. They don't need a trainer for every model they make. It does denote their knives as all being "combat" knives.
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PhoulPlae, I disagree completely. The Endura/Delica line are some of the best defensive folding knives I've encountered. The way the handle is shaped lines the point of the blade up with the wrist bones for effective, powerful thrusting. The blade is well suited to both thrusting and slashing in defense, it is an excellent combination of belly for cutting and not being so wide as to slow down stabbing. The hole opener is the best opener for stressful situation, where fine motor skills goes down if not away, and you need a large area for the thumb to hit and find easily without fumbling. The handle accomindates any grip you can think of, and the blade still performs extremely effeciantly in all grips, hammer grip, saber grip, fillipino grip, reverse grip, edge inr everse grip, mountain-man (edge up) grip, etc. etc. etc.
I think you would be surprised at the amount of people who carry Endura's and Delica's and Griptillians for defensive purposes. Go over to Self Defense Forums and look around, I think you will be surprised. I think Spyderco and Benchmade as companies realize this and are doing what the end-users want them to do by making trainers.
If you dont believe me still, why dont you check out a little page I made - it details my personal Endura and Delica and their role in my EDC as DEFENSIVE tools, why I have chosen them, and what I have done to them to make them even more effective. Combat Customizing
And dont try to argue that to make them defensive knives they had to be modified - they didnt, the modifications are only to make them better for me and how I fight - without the mods they are still excellent defensive knives. People have done these modifcations with their Griptillians as well.

(Also your use of the term Combat knife is incorrect. A Combat knife is a utility knife, plain and simple. In a combat zone a knife on a soldiers belt is not a weapon, it is a tool for clearing brush, cutting rope, breaking bands on packing crates, digging, prying and so on. The odds of it being used as a fighting/defensive tool are quite small, and if it is, that is not its primary mission - thusly "Combat knife" implies nothing more than a tough utility knife.)

Originally posted by cut finger
I don't have problem with trainers per se. Trainers for models like the Gunting and Civilian make perfect sense because they are not utility knives in any way. The problem, to me is like PhoulPlae stated, in that making trainers for knives that had been marketed as utility models tends to belie their actual purpose.
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I think you are misunderstanding and selling short these models - they are marketed as KNIVES, working knives. For whatever someone needs. I, and may others, feel this is a strong point of these knives in their defensive role - because if we have to use them then it is arguable that they arent "weapons" but are our daily utility tools, which wont be a lie as most of us who carry defensive knives do use at least one of the knives we carry for utility purposes daily. The fact that these knives are such effective dual purpose fighter/utility pieces is NOT a detriment it is an advantage. It is also an advantage during a traffic stop or a stop on the street - where a SPyderco Civillian, that is obviously a weapon, may be taken away as an illegal deadly weapon, the Endura/Delica/Griptillian isnt obviously a deadly weapon, it is a utility tool. This has advantages, as we all should be able to figure out, in that we dont run the risk of having our knives confiscated, leaving us without a tool or a means of defense.

I think it speaks extremely well of Spyderco and Benchmade that they recognize these facts and cater to their customers agreeable feelings by providing trainers for them. It not only says these companies are dedicated to the END USER, the customer, it says that the companies are aware of todays environment and take very seriously the needs of their customers for protection without running legal risks.

If you dont like it - buy other knives. Thats no more irrational than making a big deal about it. Its sad to see knife knuts sounding less and less supportive of the RKBA, and more and more left-wing politically correct.
 
Any knife can be a weapon. Look what they did 9-11 with box cutters. Self defense is our right, so is training in self defense. As long as you act appropriatly I don't think you will have any problems with the fact that there are trainers for "x-brand" knves.

Tom
 
Originally posted by cut finger
I think a DA could really sway a jury with this fact. What do you guys think about this possibility. I think that this could also be a potential source of mnajor liability for companies like Syderco and Benchmade also.
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Hmm . . . Interesting question. In an assault case, I think the DA would have more important concerns. Assault is the unlawful, intentional infliction of injury to another person. Maybe the DA could use the existance of a "trainer" version to reinforce the element of intent, but only if the defendant knew of, owned and/or trained with a trainer.

Since knives are defined as "deadly weapons" in most places, I don't think a trainer would help the DA with that.

In a self defense case, owning and/or training with a trainer certainly wouldn't help your cause any from the Jury's point of view.

As to the manufacturer's liability, I guess there are attorneys out there who might argue a trainer makde the corresponding knives more dangerous to the injured parties. Personally, I think that's nuts, but look at recent and ongoing firearms litigation. Do trainers make ordinary knives into scary "assault knives"? Is a trainer the knife equivalent of a pistol grip, bayonet lug, flash hider or folding stock? :rolleyes:
 
Maybe a DA would have more pressing issues in an assault case, but maybe not. More importantly, if the charge is not assault, but possession of a deadly weapon, issues like trainer blades could be seen as speaking to the intended use of a knife.

Also, I am not naive, I know full well that the Endura/Delica or Griptillian have the potential to be very effective weapons. I just argue that it is not wise to market them that way, and I think that training models can be seen as marketing tools. I think a parallel to Benchmade and Spyderco would be those big Maglite flashlights which can clearly be used as clubs, but they are marketed as "heavy duty" flashlights.

Finally, Joyce, I think that instead of trainers, Spyderco could do what Kershaw did with their Speedsafe knives: provide a retailer with an unsharpened knife attached to a display that can be used to demonstrate how to safely manipulate a one hand opening knife.
 
You have a choice -
(a.: You die alone except for your attacker(s) in a dark alleyway, laying in your own bodily fluids - your last though being of the family you'll never get to see again, even to say goodbye
(b.: You hurt/kill your attacker and risk going to jail - but you get to see your family, you get to breath the air after a rain storm, to hear music, to taste food, to read books, to enjoy nature, to enjoy life. You may not go to jail - or your time in jail may just be until you go to trial and it is ruled in your favour - but still, even if you go to jail jail, you still have those things you wouldnt have if you were dead.
Which are you going to choose?

If you choose to carry a knife for defense, but you do not train, because you fear "training will prove intent" then you choose choice A whether you admit it or not. It is dangerous NOT to train, if you intend to use a knife (or anything, hands/feet, a stick, a gun) for defense. So either train, or dont carry it - sounds harsh I know, but reality is that the world is a harsh place running short on comfort zones.
If you do not value your own life enough to care about self defense, then stop worrying - they make plenty of happy colourful, smaller, legal knives that will suit your day to day needs just fine - let those of who who do care, carry what we want, and train as we want - its our choice and our business.
 
Originally posted by cut finger
Maybe a DA would have more pressing issues in an assault case, but maybe not. More importantly, if the charge is not assault, but possession of a deadly weapon, issues like trainer blades could be seen as speaking to the intended use of a knife.
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That makes sense. Trouble is, most states have statutes that define a "deadly weapon". Every one of those definitions I have seen specifically include knives or knives with a blade longer than n inches as deadly weapons. Chances are the DA will not have to prove your knife is a deadly weapon because the law says it is one.

I don't know if satin was referring to my post, but for the record, I was not suggesting that anyone carry a knife for defense, but not train, because training might prove intent. If you carry anything for defense you should train with it. I was just trying to address cut finger's specific questions as best I could.
 
Satin, I have no desire to tell you what to buy or carry, and I cannot tell companies what to make. I simply pointed out that trainer models might have unintended legal consequences.

As for me dying because of an attack, it could happen whether I train or not. Attackers tend not to announce their intentions. Just look at the soldiers getting killed in Iraq on patrol. They were all armed to the teeth and wearing protective gear. For a civilian, I think making good choices about where to go and with whom to associate, plus
a general awareness of one's surroundings are the single most important defensive measures that one can take. If you don't do those things, all the knife or gun training on earth won't keep you alive. I say this as a person who has been in many inner city environments and who has also worked in
several Developing Countries, including some which have been known to support terrorism.
 
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