Trainer prices? For real?

J

jackburton9807

Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Messages
53
I have a beef that I am wondering if anyone can sort out for me. Maybe you can make me feel a bit better about it. Maybe you know loads about making knives and are able to say something that makes it all seem like a reasonable business practice.

Trainers:
Why are they the same price as the knife that cuts? I have been told that it's because they use the same steel so on so forth. Why would you use the same steel? No need to hold an edge right? Maybe use a steel that is a couple of notches lower in quality? What is that ratio of trainers to live blades that is sold? Lower I'll wager. I'm sure someone can sort me on this. I don't mean to sound bitter, but it is a practice that I think is very silly.

Am I wrong?

Cheers
 
Smaller production probably accounts for it, even when less expensive steal is used for the blade. What is the production ration I wonder - 1 trainer per 1,000 regular?

Then, too, I wonder how many trainers are returned for repair, as I suspect trainers are broken more often.

Actually, I'm sort of suprised trainers don't cost more than the standard model.
 
orthogonal1 has some good points. Smaller production would hike the price up.

I think one possible benefit of using the same steel would be be you could sharpen the trainer yourself after you no longer to intend to use it as a training tool. Then you have equal quality steel as the original production model, rather than an inferior blade that's no good as a knife even if you sharpen it.
 
Material costs are a small part of the cost of a knife.
Design
Fabrication - Machining time, assembly
Overhead costs - electricity, IT, advertising, taxes, payroll, profit.

The small savings in materials doesn't really amount to much.
 
Tacking on to what Knarfeng said, the problem with making a good trainer is that the blade geometry also needs to be altered (need to give the tip a large enough radius so that it definitely can't stab someone), and on larger blades (maybe some smaller ones?), this and removing the blade grind causes the balance to be different, so that needs to be taken into account, and so on. A good trainer will have the same type of handle, and costs usually have to be taken into account for that as well.

Let's take the Spyderco Endura Trainer as an example. Apart from the blade differences, we still have to make the handle, lockbar and other elements, and the lockup also has to be the same as the original knife, so that involves the QC checks that are also present on the live version.

Also, the handle being a different colour means that when they make a run of trainers, they probably have to clean out the injection machine in some way so that we don't get red and black knives (that might actually look interesting?), and then clean it out again when they go back to producing black handled knives.

I also seem to remember something about tempering a trainer blade to something different so that it can absorb more shock, since it's hitting something rather than cutting through it.
 
The purpose of a high-quality trainer that matches the "live" blade is so you can use it in training classes and in other training scenarios, repeatedly, achieving a simulation of drawing and using your live blade that is as realistic as possible under the constraints of that scenario. Pay once for a good trainer and you'll use it over and over again. And, no, there isn't a lot of production difference between, say, a live Endura and an Endura trainer, so it doesn't surprise me that the prices are similar.

It costs a lot of money for a hunk of blue plastic in the shape of a gun, all things considered -- but that training weapon will get used over and over again if you actively pursue CQC instruction. Suddenly fifty bucks for a blue pistol or a hundred and more for a blue rifle doesn't seem so much, especially when you can snap it into the same holster you wear day to day.
 
If it's being trained with, it needs to be as close to the real thing. If you like the knife, you're going to keep training with it; if you really like it, the trainer will get passed onto a friend. And if it's used in a class, it's going to be manhandled by EVERYONE until it gives up the ghost.

Along with them being made in limited runs, they also take up storage space for longer.
 
I can see most everyone's point here. I just think it is silly. I have purchased one trainer (delica) and try to make it work for most things. I wish I had more but am unwilling or able to drop that kind of coin on something that does not cut (Don't get me started on the ASP guns) I am willing to bet that not a single knife manufacturer bases any profit projection on anything having to do with trainers. Does one hope to make money from a product sold? Of course they do. I just think there may be a better way. Maybe offer a package deal for X amount of $ more. You could charge MSRP for the real deal and a sane price for the trainer if you get them together.
 
I find that weird too, like the small spyder fly uses 440 i think, its like 10 bucks cheaper..
 
I would guess that it takes close to the same amount of work and materials to produce a trainer as it does to make a real knife. If it's to be a useful trainer, it has to be as close as possible to the real model to simulate it properly. The people that make them just want to get paid what their time and effort are worth.
 
Hi Jack,

Since I'm the guy that created and builds the Delica trainer, I will try to shed some light on your confusion.

The differences betwen the Delica "live" blade and the Delica trainer (other than blade shape) is only the type of blade steel being used for the blade. We usually use Gingami I or ATS-34 / 154Cm. It's not much cheaper than VG-10, but a good blade steel must be used or the lock/tang relationship won't last. Trainers are generally used hard and the lock really needs to work as well as a live blade.

All of the processes are the same. Forming the blades and locks (laser), heat treating, grinding and polishing, while different, are still necessary. Same handle, same lock, same springs, same liners, pins, screws, etc. The action has to be the same, weight, balance, "feel" have to be the same or it doesn't function well as a trainer.

If it costs as much to make, then it costs as much to sell (at least at Spyderco, margins are relatively fixed. We believe that "charging as much as the market will bear is "biting the hand that feeds you").

As far as volume, not enough to bother. So profit is likewise not enough to bother to make them.

We make them for Law enforcement professionals because they have a need and have asked us to make them. CIA, FBI, Military, "Save & Serve" professionals. There are also a number of knife afi's that enjoy the study of the "art of Martial Blade Craft". Like Judo or fencing, MBC had depth beside in combat.

Our first Trainer was prompted by Bram Frank for his Gunting model, (Spyderco made Bram's knives for a while). While working with many of the MBC instructors, I decided that making "trainers" was a service that we could provide. They asked for Endura's and Delica's. We also make a P'Kal trainer.

If price is a real issue, there are a number of companies and individuals that made "fixed" trainers for many current models (eg: James Keating has a video on the Civilian and he makes a beautiful fixed trainer). They are less expensive, but don't work well for deployment practice.

Most of the MBC instructors use some type of trainer and when training with folders, and they prefer a trainer that is effective for all aspects of training, including depoloyment. That's why we make a trainer for waved Endura's and Delica's. I can assure you that from a business point of view, it is certainly questioned by our accounting department.

Hope that helps.

sal
 
Why would a trainer cost less? It's basically the same product with the exception of one final process. The steel is usually the same because the processes are all set up for that steel. Bringing in a new type of steel would require a whole new process development which is quite expensive. Besides, in combative training, trainers take quite a beating and, if they are not good, hardened steel, they will get nicked and dented and dinged up and essentially become nasty serrated edges.

All products have certain fixed costs. They need a stock space on the shelf, they need a place in your catalog, an entry on your website, they need an ad shot photo taken, copy written, they need to entered into your computer MRP system, records have to be maintained, etc. All of that costs the same regardless of how many you sell. When a product sells more pieces, those fixed costs are amortized over more units so add less cost per unit.

If anything, a trainer should cost more. And that is just the cost of this important tool.
 
Sal Glesser said:
I can assure you that from a business point of view, it is certainly questioned by our accounting department.


sal
Click to expand...


Sal, if your accounting department is anything like the one where I work, ANYTHING the designers want to do is challenged.:grumpy:

At our place it's worse, because all the VPs are Finance guys, so you know which line of thinking they back. I know that is not true at your place.
 
knarfeng said:
Sal, if your accounting department is anything like the one where I work, ANYTHING the designers want to do is challenged.:grumpy:

At our place it's worse, because all the VPs are Finance guys, so you know which line of thinking they back. I know that is not true at your place.
Click to expand...

We use a group management style so every manager has a say. You have to listen to the accountant to stay in business, but we're lucky to have a very savvy CFO. He works shows, he approves of all of our "community" stuff and he knows how to count. He also respects the opinions of the other department managers.

sal
 
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