Trenchknives/Knuckleknives

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Dr Heelhook

Joined
Jul 24, 2007
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I was wondering, what was the exact background for using knuckle-trenchknives in the wars? Ones first thought would be that why the hell would you need knuckledusters on a knife, when you can just stab the guy? Did it have to do with the fact that they're harder to disarm, or that it can be hard sometimes to stab someone, if they're wearing a flak jacket and therefore it's easier to punch or what?

edit: if anyone thinks this is better suited for practac, feel free to move thread.
 
Most of them are based on old designs. From back when they actually had some practical value in protecting your fingers from an enemy's sword or knife. Look at some of the bowies and such issued/ aquired during the American Civil War. Also look at some of the trench knives from the first World War. In the muddy trench environment, knives and clubs were common weapons, so having a finger guard that you could also use to deck your enemy was still somewhat practical. Most of the knives that have these guards since then are a bit less practical. Think of them as the precursors to today's mall ninja trend...
 
I'm talking mainly about the WW ones..

I mean, using a knife to do a guy in, when you're in a war must be a rare enough situation enough as it is, since it is usually safer to shoot him, but if you have to engage in close quarter combat, it seems more effective to stab the guy than punch him. What advantages would there be for using a knuckle duster compared to using a knife?
 
Trench warfare involved close quarters combat. So close you could run into the enemy during trench raids. There is a great book about trench warfare and it features pictures of the issued and improvised weapons of the day. Some of them are pretty nifty some are not. When I get back to school I will visit the library and get the name and author of said book.
 
LEt me pass on some knowledge to you, during the first world war it was extremely common to engage in ahdn to hand combat it was called trench warfare. a good knife or short sword or a good club was almost as important as your rifle which itself was often used as a club, even durig OIF 1 soldiers would attatch bayonets during MOUT. years ago i had a DS that did so im not making things up. (note im not saying its common but its was done hell they issue the things for a reason)

As for the use of knuckles you might be able to land a knuckled blow through a mans gaurd that might prevent a blade from sliding though also you ould use it to block the blow of a club or sword in a situation that might have broken the blade of the knife, having a broken hand is better than a broken or decapitated head. Another thing about the knuckle type knife is that it cna shine in the reverse grip depending on the users style of hand to hand combat. the way i was origionally tought to use a knife with knuckles was that id hold it in the revers grp and punch with it and then as the blow impacted the user would slide the blow past the person and slic eiwth the knife. ive never had any serious expeience with these types of knives htough and i dont own one currently. also as stated it aids in retention which was a huge problem in the slippery muddy trenches of world war1. Theres a book out onthis subject btw if you find it an ineresting subject.
 
razorsdescent said:
LEt me pass on some knowledge to you, during the first world war it was extremely common to engage in ahdn to hand combat it was called trench warfare. a good knife or short sword or a good club was almost as important as your rifle which itself was often used as a club, even durig OIF 1 soldiers would attatch bayonets during MOUT. years ago i had a DS that did so im not making things up. (note im not saying its common but its was done hell they issue the things for a reason)

As for the use of knuckles you might be able to land a knuckled blow through a mans gaurd that might prevent a blade from sliding though also you ould use it to block the blow of a club or sword in a situation that might have broken the blade of the knife, having a broken hand is better than a broken or decapitated head. Another thing about the knuckle type knife is that it cna shine in the reverse grip depending on the users style of hand to hand combat. the way i was origionally tought to use a knife with knuckles was that id hold it in the revers grp and punch with it and then as the blow impacted the user would slide the blow past the person and slic eiwth the knife. ive never had any serious expeience with these types of knives htough and i dont own one currently. also as stated it aids in retention which was a huge problem in the slippery muddy trenches of world war1. Theres a book out onthis subject btw if you find it an ineresting subject.
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Thanks. What book is that?
 
Having a full knuckle guard allows you to use 3 parts of a knife in combat, compared to normally one or two. I'd take that advantage.

In WWI, the purpose of trench raiding was often to capture prisoners for interrogation. Busting a surprised enemy in the face with a 1-lb knuckleduster kept him alive and docile. Also, knife fighting isn't as silent as the movies, your enemy may still be able to kill you dead or alert others after receiving a mortal wound, while a punch to the front, side or back of the head can put someone down quickly and quietly.
 
The Canadian movie Passchendale has a good scene at the end about what WWI combat was like, not nearly as 'neat' as WWII.
 
As tech and civilisation advances, warfare moves to become more impersonal. Not to say I haven't had to butt stroke a guy, but modern warfare is more long range.
 
Dr Heelhook said:
I'm talking mainly about the WW ones..

I mean, using a knife to do a guy in, when you're in a war must be a rare enough situation enough as it is, since it is usually safer to shoot him, but if you have to engage in close quarter combat, it seems more effective to stab the guy than punch him. What advantages would there be for using a knuckle duster compared to using a knife?
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The standard issue weapon, during this time frame, was a bolt-action. Not real conducive to follow up shots. Bayonet, shovel, club, shortsword (Bowie), dirk, and/or trenchknives were common tools of the trade for infantrymen of the era. Ive always been a fan of the Trenchknife design. Very practical...skullcrusher, knuckle, tip, edge...excellent weapon.

Despite the advent of modern weapons this aspect of CQB while minimized is still rearing its ugly head.
 
That's why we still train with bayonets. I remember having a grrrrrreat time when I did. It really helps bring out that caveman killer instinct that can be necessary to survive combat.
[youtube]BDeyGrUV-CI[/youtube]
 
Charlie Mike said:
That's why we still train with bayonets. I remember having a grrrrrreat time when I did. It really helps bring out that caveman killer instinct that can be necessary to survive combat.
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Hehee...if you notice, that was the very first supplementary weapon I mentioned. Something rather terrifying about a 200lb guy attacking you with a 8lb club with a pointy end. Loved bayonet training...
 
SAd news for you guys they cut bayonet training from infantry basic fairly recently too i think less than a year ago. i always thought bayonet training was more abot mindset tan actually using a bayonete. i loved that course though :D
 
razorsdescent said:
SAd news for you guys they cut bayonet training from infantry basic fairly recently too i think less than a year ago. i always thought bayonet training was more abot mindset tan actually using a bayonete. i loved that course though :D
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You're right. Mindset they want is that killer instinct. This pisses me off. Bayo and pugil, BJJ Gracie program, are what made me feel a little more fearless. I'm going to right my congressman. Infantry need to know this stuff! In 1/50 B co, our battalion sound off was "Fix Bayonets" IIRC. The bayo is as infantry as a blue cord.
 
seems to me that war in general these days is taking the psychiatric conditioning out of the equation. Maybe being not mentally ready for combat is why we're getting so many soldiers who come back with depression and PTSD. Just a thought.
 
WongKonPow said:
seems to me that war in general these days is taking the psychiatric conditioning out of the equation. Maybe being not mentally ready for combat is why we're getting so many soldiers who come back with depression and PTSD. Just a thought.
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I think you are onto something. All the "murders and homicides" I have seen on TV and caused in video games never prepared me for what happens when you take a human life. My VA diagnosis is 100% due to PTSD.

See my thread in Prac/Tac called "Have we become neutered?"
 
my bad VA= Veteran's Affairs
 
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