I know it takes time and patience to learn to sharpen on a stone. I don't need to be able to whittle hair, I could probably get my knife sharp enough to do anything I ever need it for on a pull through carbide v (I actually have before), but that's not fun or satisfying. I have now spent hours reading your posts about advanced sharpening (I'm impressed and it's entertaining, thank you) and I have spent many more hours just trying to give myself a satisfactory edge, my knife is duller than it started out. Am I gonna ruin my knife? Is it possible that I am biologically unfit to sharpen a knife?
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trouble learning to sharpen
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Well, if you're removing a lot of metal from your knife and re profiling it, you might thicken it out if you try several hundred times. With general sharpening though, I wouldn't worry about it too much.
I suppose it's biologically possible that you can't sharpen. Hold your hand out flat. Does it shake? If no, then you should be able to sharpen.
Most beginner's biggest hurdle is learning how to hold a consistent angle through the stroke, as well as angling the hilt upward to make full contact with the edge. Past that it's also very important to know how to check for a burr ( so you know when to back off and start on the other side ) and then how to remove the burr. If you're not getting edges as good as a carbide pull through, I suspect you're not holding the angle very well. If you were leaving a burr on it would cut as well ( probably better) as any carbide pull sharpener, but if you're raising a burr and it's still not sharp at all, you're probably not hitting the edge because of inconsistent angle holding.
The best advice I think there is for keeping the angle constant on a stone is to not use your arm muscles, but use your back and hips to move your body forward. Then use the muscles in your shoulders and arms to concentrate on angling the back of the blade upward to keep the angle and stroke in consistent contact on the bevel from hilt, to belly to tip... Depend on what you're sharpening of course. However, in that way, you can leave your hand muscles to do the work of locking the angle in consistently, while the rest of your body works on the other parts.
One thing you should try to see how you're hitting the bevel is the "marker trick"; draw some magic marker on the face of the bevel. Make a stroke as best as you can, and then with the marker you can see which parts of the metal you're grinding and use your common sense from there. If all you see is a thin line on the very edge of the bevel, you're holding your angle too high; if only the marking on the shoulder is removed, too low. If there's kind of a wavy line that forms from the bits you removed starting from the hilt, to the tip, then you're wavering too much in your stroke. If the hilt marking is perfectly removed, but only the shoulder or the very edge marking is removed at the tip of the blade, you're holding the spine too high or too low respectively because you're not angling the butt of the knife correctly for the bevel face to make full contact and altering the angle. Just basically think about what the pattern is telling you, as it indicates which part of the bevel is making contact with the stone.
All in all though, if you have a reasonably flat bevel, fairly equal on both sides, and have raised and removed a burr you should have a pretty sharp edge. Is the face of your bevel very convex, or kind of covered with a lot of different flat spots? That would be a dead give away for too much wavering, and it's pretty much the most common problem so don't worry about it if that's the case. It's very easy to hold a consistent angle that's not the right angle and wind up with a multi-faceted looking bevel, or waver too much and have it look quite round and convex.
Combined with the tip about using your muscles, I'd recommend you set some pennies on your stone. Then rest the edge of your spine on the edge of the stack ( don't use much pressure or you'll press them down, and be sure to put the spine edge on the same spot each time ), and in this way you can keep track of the angle you're sharpening. Try to make as many strokes as you can without setting the spine on the stack, and then without changing the angle drag it back to the pennies to see if you've moved it up or down. Don't be surprised if when you drag the edge straight back, instead of resting back on the same spot of the penny, you hit the edge or glide way over the top of it. Just try do your best to keep the spine coming back to the same point on the edge of the coin stack, and through practice you'll get better. Now days I just use the pennies as gauges to keep track of which angle I ground which knife at, but they work really good as a trainer, even with a new knife I might not be used to.
If you wish though, you could check out a DMT Aligner clamp. They're $15, and just the clamp alone; normally they're sold as part of a sharpening system. However, you can use the clamp as a free-hand sharpening trainer. It should give you a feel for how to maneuver the blade to keep good bevel contact, while keeping the angle constant for you and training your muscles. RazorEdge Systems also sells some guides that are for the same purpose, but it's a much wider clamp and you can't cover the belly of the knife as well as with the DMT. They're limited though because you need to have a good, flat 90 degree surface on the spine to clamp on to.
Anyway, that's all I think I should really say for now. A little long winded anyway. If you want to check out some more stuff to read that might get you on your way though, check out John Juranitch's book, "The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening." It's full of less of the "What angle? What grit?" part of the procedure and more about the actual technique involved. I could free-hand a decent edge before reading it, but after reading it my whole understanding of the process was a lot better, and through that (and practice of course) my results got better.
So yeah, practice practice practice... And if that doesn't work, re-evaluate your knowledge, and then practice practice practice
I suppose it's biologically possible that you can't sharpen. Hold your hand out flat. Does it shake? If no, then you should be able to sharpen.
Most beginner's biggest hurdle is learning how to hold a consistent angle through the stroke, as well as angling the hilt upward to make full contact with the edge. Past that it's also very important to know how to check for a burr ( so you know when to back off and start on the other side ) and then how to remove the burr. If you're not getting edges as good as a carbide pull through, I suspect you're not holding the angle very well. If you were leaving a burr on it would cut as well ( probably better) as any carbide pull sharpener, but if you're raising a burr and it's still not sharp at all, you're probably not hitting the edge because of inconsistent angle holding.
The best advice I think there is for keeping the angle constant on a stone is to not use your arm muscles, but use your back and hips to move your body forward. Then use the muscles in your shoulders and arms to concentrate on angling the back of the blade upward to keep the angle and stroke in consistent contact on the bevel from hilt, to belly to tip... Depend on what you're sharpening of course. However, in that way, you can leave your hand muscles to do the work of locking the angle in consistently, while the rest of your body works on the other parts.
One thing you should try to see how you're hitting the bevel is the "marker trick"; draw some magic marker on the face of the bevel. Make a stroke as best as you can, and then with the marker you can see which parts of the metal you're grinding and use your common sense from there. If all you see is a thin line on the very edge of the bevel, you're holding your angle too high; if only the marking on the shoulder is removed, too low. If there's kind of a wavy line that forms from the bits you removed starting from the hilt, to the tip, then you're wavering too much in your stroke. If the hilt marking is perfectly removed, but only the shoulder or the very edge marking is removed at the tip of the blade, you're holding the spine too high or too low respectively because you're not angling the butt of the knife correctly for the bevel face to make full contact and altering the angle. Just basically think about what the pattern is telling you, as it indicates which part of the bevel is making contact with the stone.
All in all though, if you have a reasonably flat bevel, fairly equal on both sides, and have raised and removed a burr you should have a pretty sharp edge. Is the face of your bevel very convex, or kind of covered with a lot of different flat spots? That would be a dead give away for too much wavering, and it's pretty much the most common problem so don't worry about it if that's the case. It's very easy to hold a consistent angle that's not the right angle and wind up with a multi-faceted looking bevel, or waver too much and have it look quite round and convex.
Combined with the tip about using your muscles, I'd recommend you set some pennies on your stone. Then rest the edge of your spine on the edge of the stack ( don't use much pressure or you'll press them down, and be sure to put the spine edge on the same spot each time ), and in this way you can keep track of the angle you're sharpening. Try to make as many strokes as you can without setting the spine on the stack, and then without changing the angle drag it back to the pennies to see if you've moved it up or down. Don't be surprised if when you drag the edge straight back, instead of resting back on the same spot of the penny, you hit the edge or glide way over the top of it. Just try do your best to keep the spine coming back to the same point on the edge of the coin stack, and through practice you'll get better. Now days I just use the pennies as gauges to keep track of which angle I ground which knife at, but they work really good as a trainer, even with a new knife I might not be used to.
If you wish though, you could check out a DMT Aligner clamp. They're $15, and just the clamp alone; normally they're sold as part of a sharpening system. However, you can use the clamp as a free-hand sharpening trainer. It should give you a feel for how to maneuver the blade to keep good bevel contact, while keeping the angle constant for you and training your muscles. RazorEdge Systems also sells some guides that are for the same purpose, but it's a much wider clamp and you can't cover the belly of the knife as well as with the DMT. They're limited though because you need to have a good, flat 90 degree surface on the spine to clamp on to.
Anyway, that's all I think I should really say for now. A little long winded anyway. If you want to check out some more stuff to read that might get you on your way though, check out John Juranitch's book, "The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening." It's full of less of the "What angle? What grit?" part of the procedure and more about the actual technique involved. I could free-hand a decent edge before reading it, but after reading it my whole understanding of the process was a lot better, and through that (and practice of course) my results got better.
So yeah, practice practice practice... And if that doesn't work, re-evaluate your knowledge, and then practice practice practice
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Lots of excellent advice in KennyB's post. :thumbup:
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Practice, Practice, Practice. Took me like six months just to get a shaving sharp edge. Now I get stupid sharp hair whittling edges. Just get a decent stone and keep at it. Watching videos also helps on finding your own technique.
Thank you KennyB that's a lot of info. It seems like two pennies is probably the right stack size, or would three be better? The razor edge book sounds interesting, but I think too much technique info might bog me down and make it hard to find one decent simple method, I might reward myself with that read after I feel more comfortable with whatever I find that works for me.
Knifenut1013 I don't know the manufacturer of my stones but they are of the diamond variety: 200, 300, 400, 600. I've been starting on the 300 and working up. It's my understanding that I should be able to get a decent edge off the 600 and once I figure that out I'll worry about getting a finer stone.
I'm gonna go read the thread about finding the burr right now.
Thanks again all.
Knifenut1013 I don't know the manufacturer of my stones but they are of the diamond variety: 200, 300, 400, 600. I've been starting on the 300 and working up. It's my understanding that I should be able to get a decent edge off the 600 and once I figure that out I'll worry about getting a finer stone.
I'm gonna go read the thread about finding the burr right now.
Thanks again all.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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With diamond stones using too much pressure is the main killer of the edge. Using progressively less pressure to the point of floating the edge on the surface will make them perform best. 600 will still be toothy but you should be able to get a very sharp edge at that point.
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- Feb 7, 2008
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the main killer imho is pressure. as with any sharpening system pressure is the killer. trying to put more pressure on the blade,stone,belt or anything with your body ,changes the angle of attack and removes more material, which is bad in the sharpening world. try scraping the ice off your windshield at a low angle and a relaxed stroke, then do it at a steeper angle and more pressure and compare the results. that is what you are doing to your knife blade. i hate to sound like a "zen hippie" but, lighter controlled strokes accomplishes a more and even sharpening and it is better for your stones. diamond,natural.or otherwise. sharpening should be a relaxing "hobby" not a p.i.t.a. thing to do.
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I now have come to use a 1x42 belt sander. The best part of it is the leather stroping belt. I charge it with diamond spray. I mainly find myself starting with 600 grit, then 800, then the leather strop belt. It is relaxing, and I do not have time to sit down for a few hours to get the results I can in a few minutes. Also, I can choose to leave the platen on for a flat firm backing, or take it off and have a slack belt sharpening. My hand stays steady, and the belts move over my passing blade. My angles look great, and since I pulleyed it down a tad, it is a bit slower than factory speed. So far, for me, it gets my blades tree topping sharp and in no time flat. I have a polished edge, and they look even. I have sharpened and attained these results on stones, Lansky device, paper wheels, and last effort is the belt sander. I can easily sharp my Benchmade 710 now without issues of recurve problems. It has brought me sharpening joy. I am not going to argue about anybody else's techniques or know how. I only want the OP to know what I have experienced. The real key is that I learned something during the journey. I have no regrets purchasing any device that I have, nor selling a couple that I no longer use. If you have lots of kids, find a faster way to sharpen or you will have dull knives. If time is abundant for you, I suggest free handed bliss with artistic endeavor. Become one with the blade. For me, quick, fast, fun, and scary sharp with a belt sander. I got mine on Craig's list for 65. I had to rewire the motor with a switch and pig tail, and buy a pulley and a belt for it, but I like the old stuff. Mine is a Dalton, but Grizzly sells one as well. Check it out. Feel free to PM me if you want some more details. Good luck in your quest.
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Stupid question, but could the DMT Aligner clamp be used for stropping as well? Seems like it might be worth a try for my unsteady hands.
Well, it kind of depends... The angle that the clamp holds is made constant by the prop resting on the bench surface, but if the distance between the surface of your work bench and the surface of the hone changes, so does the angle. It's kind of a pain in the butt with water-stones because if you flatten in the middle of sharpening you can throw your angle off, so it's pretty finicky. My suspicion has always been that the idea of using them as a guide with benchstones was mostly for diamond stones, since their height is pretty much constant amongst a series of grits, and they don't wear. When I do get another higher grit stone ( right now I only have a 220/1000 water stone), I will have to fashion spacers to make up for the difference in stone thickness between the two if I want to use the guide throughout the series--seeing how sensitive it is now, I don't really think it will work, so I've been focusing more on free-handing. I do still use the clamp quite often for a reprofile job depending on what the knife is.
So anyway, without carrying on too much more, I think the big problem with stropping with it would be trying to make sure that the distance from the work surface and the surface of the strop is the same as the distance between the work surface and the surface of your hones; or in other words making sure your hone and your strop are exactly the same thickness. The only other thing I see that would work well is some of that polishing tape that I've heard people talk about, but I don't know how thick it is; either way if you could put something over the hone itself that wouldn't alter the height, that would be the best way in my opinion. I've thought about using some kind of paper and loading it with CrO, putting that over the benchstone, and stropping like that, but I haven't wanted to try it because I'm worried the compound would bleed through and contaminate the stone. Though, I may have had a little stroke of genius just now, because maybe if you put saran wrap over the stone, then you could put something like tracing paper to load up with compound and strop--however that's bound to throw things off by at least a few thousandths. That's the best way I think it could work though, and even that sounds a little clumsy because the wrap would probably flex too much, or the edge would tear the paper, etc. Maybe aluminum foil could work... I think the bottom line is that you'd have to try something to see.
The best thing that I've found so far as stropping goes with the aligner is stropping on your hone itself. With the clamp holding the angle, using extremely fine pressure is really easy; I suppose the seasoned vet could replicate this free-hand ( think Murray Carter ) but the clamp certainly makes tone-honing more possible for the less enlightened like myself. I know it's not quite the same, but it really adds an extra level or two on top of what my hone would do just finishing up with edge-leading strokes.
Anyway, sorry for the second essay... I kind of have a habit of being longwinded.
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Uhh, yeah. I don't use a hone or anything. I do all sharpening on my WorkSharp, but I wanted to see if I could take the edge further with strops. Thing is, I seem to be making the edge duller that way either because my angle is off or because I'm using too much pressure, so I figure using the aligner could at least help a little in that regard.
From the sound of it, the aligner would keep a consistent angle so long as both surfaces are flat, so it sounds like it's worth a try.
From the sound of it, the aligner would keep a consistent angle so long as both surfaces are flat, so it sounds like it's worth a try.