trying..hamon..5160..today!!

M

MCoughlin

Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
471
So I'm in the middle of putting the bevels on my 1/4" thick 5160 blade right now and this is the first time I will be heat treating 5160. Any suggestions on tempering temp, time....

I will be using some refrac mud I got from a refrac rep at work to try called super demon. I'm hoping for a nice hamon (even though I've heard it's difficult to get one on 5160).

Anyways, I have to go to the store to get more sandpaper so I can finish my bevels...
Any suggestions are appreciated. I will be heat treating tonight as soon as it gets dark.

Mike
 
Cool....read my recent posts on hamons....its not as simple as applying clay in the pattern of the hamon desired, as I thought originally. Once i read all the responses I had, it "clicked" to me how the whole thing works, and i would do it differently the second time.

Cant offer much on the 5160....i think it ht's similar to most carbon steels, but am not sure....

Im heading home now to do some sanding....hand sanding a 10" long blade to 4000 grit takes longer than I expected.
 
I use the same brand for claycoat. Paint it on and go for it. I dont bother letting it dry.

5160 wont make a dramatic hamon, but can make a nice distinct line. I temper at 325 the first time , and test upwards from there.
 
So 325 for 2 hours then? I ordered some 1084 from tks. I will try with that as well when it gets here.
Thanks
 
TikTock said:
How'd HT go? My sanding went spectacular.....
Click to expand...

Unfortunately my heat treat went sour. Sucks cause it took me most od the day to profile and bevel that one.

Here's what happened. I coated the spine with demon (my clay), but then realized I didn't try this spheriodizing to refine the grain so I figured instead of grinding off the clay I'll just do it with it on. NOT RECOMMENDED. I thought about it after and can't believe I did that. It warped all to S#*T. I can see the area where it hardened but the warpage is too severe to save. Too bad. I guess I learned another "what not to do". I think I'll leave experimenting to smaller blades that aren't 1/4" thick, and take all day to grind from now on though. I'm glad yours turned out so well though.
Mike
 
DOH......that sucks!

You mean normalized with clay on? I could see how that would warp! Learning experience....get it back up hot and maybe you can straighten it??
 
Okay i'm confused. What's the difference between normalizing and spheriodizing ( or whatever...). I watched the making of the ox forge bowie and it looked to me that he just heated the blade to a bit passed non-mag and let it air cool 3 times. That sounds a lot like nornmalizing to me. Although I'm new to carbon steels and have always used stainless in the past, I like them and have a small forge so getting good with carbon steel will benefit me greatly. Any tips would be appreciated. I'm sure I was told going to non-mag and letting air cool is normalizing but then I watched the video and....I must be missing something. Maybe I interpreted wrong.

As far as saving the blade... Here's a picture. It's hard to tell how much it warped without looking down the blade though (the tip is gone because I stabbed it into my workbench and pryed till it broke. It might be worth a try to straighten but I think this is one for the scrap bucket.lol I think I might try the bend test though just to see if it'll make it.lol. Plus it's fun..
Mike
 
You could have normalized after heat treat, straighten the blade, normalized a couple more times, check straightness and re-heat treat. You can also normalize with the clay on, I've done it many times. Normalizing before quench and not overheating will greatly reduce warping. You can also staighten a clay HTed blade after tempering if the spine didn't harden.
 
Yeah from your pic, i dont think the blade is a lost cause. Show us a pic from the top. You could certainly take the warp out, re-normalize, and re-ht......
 
Well you guys have convinced me to try. I will get the forge going and see what I can do. Since the edge is already hardened I guess I'll need to start all over. I'll update. Here's an idea of the warpage. If you place the knife on it's side on the bench and then flip it over, the tip is touching the bench on one side and probably 3/16" off the bench on the other. I also noticed that the cutting edge itself is warped but being so thin a may be able to repair it. I'll try to fix it up. If nothing else I can still try to polish the hamon out to see how well it worked (before I bend it lol). I neglected to mention that I'm edge quenching up to a bit past the clay (so some clay is submerged).

Sunfishman
If you can normalize with the clay on than I fear I have not figured out what caused the warpage. The blade is made from 1/4" stock and I figured warpage wouldn't be a big factor this time around. Any idea what else may have caused it. Overheating would mean the steel was bright orange or ellow right? I had it orange but I didn't think I was at the overheating point...i don't know...:confused:
mike
try, try again I guess.
Mike
 
Here are some suggestions.
1) Soak the blade for at least a couple of minutes at the hold temperature to insure complete heating and structural uniformity.This is especially important if the blade is clay coated.
2) The clay coat is there to keep the spine HOT longer,not to keep it from getting hot.A full quench will work better,often.Edge quenching will produce a quench/temper line,full quenching produces and actual hamon.
3) 1075 or 1080 might work better for this knife.
4) reheat the damaged/warped blade to critical and hold for 2-3 minutes.Place in a annealing box and check the next day.Hammer it flat and straight,re-grind any areas that need a touch up,leave a little more on the edge (this will help avoid warping),and remember - sometimes warp happens to the best of us.
5) With your equipment and experience,just do normalizing.Heat to just above the upper critical limit(slightly above non-mag),hold for a short time (this assures it is completely austenitized),cool to black heat,repeat twice more. Spheroidizing requires holding at the lower critical threshold,and is to make the lamellar carbides into spherical carbides in order to increase ductility and merchantability.Neither of these is of any real interest to bladesmiths.Annealing before grinding,normalizing before quench,tempering as soon after quench as possible.
Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
Here are some suggestions.
1) Soak the blade for at least a couple of minutes at the hold temperature to insure complete heating and structural uniformity.This is especially important if the blade is clay coated.
2) The clay coat is there to keep the spine HOT longer,not to keep it from getting hot.A full quench will work better,often.Edge quenching will produce a quench/temper line,full quenching produces and actual hamon.
3) 1075 or 1080 might work better for this knife.
4) reheat the damaged/warped blade to critical and hold for 2-3 minutes.Place in a annealing box and check the next day.Hammer it flat and straight,re-grind any areas that need a touch up,leave a little more on the edge (this will help avoid warping),and remember - sometimes warp happens to the best of us.
5) With your equipment and experience,just do normalizing.Heat to just above the upper critical limit(slightly above non-mag),hold for a short time (this assures it is completely austenitized),cool to black heat,repeat twice more. Spheroidizing requires holding at the lower critical threshold,and is to make the lamellar carbides into spherical carbides in order to increase ductility and merchantability.Neither of these is of any real interest to bladesmiths.Annealing before grinding,normalizing before quench,tempering as soon after quench as possible.
Stacy
Click to expand...
Thanks but I don't have an anvil or anything to hammer on yet. Basically I'm a stock removal guy with a small forge for heat treating carbon steel blades(for now...I will of course be forging in the future). I think this knife is toast but I have some old hacksaw blades (those blue ones...1.5" wide...1/16" thick...). I'm not sure what they are for steel but I normailzed a couple pieces earlier and I will be making a small test blade shortly. I will try the clay coat again with this for fun. Any guesses as far as tempering temp? I was thinking of starting around 325 for a couple hours?

Mike
 
What is your normal HT procedure? I would say, for me, that O-1 steel is the most forgiving during HT....it gives you bit more time to get that blade from critical down below the nose to harden. For hamons, i have found 1084 to be the easiest...you can get sections for like 6$ a foot, but in limited thicknesses, from www.texasknife.com. 1095 gives some of the ost vivid hamons i've seen, but it is a nasty steel to HT and requires an almost inhumanly fast quench. I dont know the nose timing on 5160 in terms of hardening.

For tempering, I usually do 2 hours at 375, going more by the color (light straw) than anything else. After that, I do my brass rod test and then re-temper at 425 for 2 if necessary.

As for straightening, you don't need an anvil. Get three brass rods, 3/8" or more. Drill a hole though the top of each and put a rod through those holes, so you have three rods dangling off the top one. Put two rods on the side of the blade in the opposite direction of the warp, and the third on the center of the bow on the other side. Put this in the vice, and tighten. The rod on the bowed side will push the bend out. You will most likely have to go past straight to get the blade to flex back straight.

If you overheated, the blade will most likely shatter. I would anneal that blade since the warp is 3/16"....

Also, identify where the warp is....if its up near the tip, you can salvage the blade by shortening it a bit....

Did you ensure even heating? Most warps are:
1. Uneven grinding
2. Lack of normalizng with heavy grinding stresses in blade
3. Uneven heating
4. Off-kilter quench

I swear I once warped one when the wind gusted as i pulled it out of the forge...they don't call it "critical temp" for nothing...haha!
 
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