Trying to understand HRC vs. Steel type

Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
1,157
I've been reading some posts as well as other blogs about steel. However, dense as I am, I'm having a hard time understanding the importance of steel type. Basically, when it comes to edge retention, how does the steel type affect things? or is edge retention solely determined by the HRC of the steel and steel type simply determines things like corrosion resistance. If I have two different steel types, but both of them heat treated to, say, 59 HRC, how, or more importantly, why will edge retention be different?

I'm posting this here because I figured the bladesmiths might be more knowledgeable of such areas of the trade, but if this would be better suited in the General forum, I'm fine with it being moved. Thanks in advance for explaining or helping me understand this.
 
I'm sure someone else will chime in soon, but there are more properties than just hardness. Wear resistance is of course the steels ability to resist wear. I'm sure you can visualize how that could be good for maintaining an edge. Likewise with toughness, with low toughness you get chipping like on my boker ceramic which at the extreme end is basically useless for cutting anything more challenging than fruit and veggies. It has insane hardness and wear resistance, but you could destroy the edge in under a minute trying to carve wood with it because it has very little toughness.
 
I guess what I'm not grasping is what determines wear resistance. If a substance is very hard (high HRC) doesn't it stand to reason that it would be more resistant to wear? Also, since you mention toughness, how is this gauged? If I'm looking at two steels, what feature of it would tell me how tough it is?

Yikes. The more I think about it, the more I realize just how little I understand some of the most basic fundamentals at hand here. Is there some primer I should check out?
 
This is more focused towards tools but the general explanation is there. http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/properties-of-tool-steel.html - just ignore the part about heat tolerance.
The ideal knife steal would be have infinitely high hardness, wear resistance, and toughness... but thats impossible. Instead you have all these steels capable of different combinations when treated in different ways, then on top of that the edge geometry can make the most of the available properties or waste them. Then theres the intended purpose and overall design of the knife... At best you can come up with a perfect combination for one specific knife with one specific purpose. I've just been reading up on all this stuff myself over the past few weeks so I'm sure someone will come along and give a better explanation.
 
Last edited:
1. Buy or borrow from the library this book.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1566375436/ref=aw_d_detail?pd=1

Seriously. It helps big time, and will give you a good foundation to base the rest of your knowledge on.

2. Read Kevin Cashen's post about Working the Three Steels. It's in the sticky at the top of this forum under Rosetta Stone, I believe.

3. Remember this doesn't come naturally for most people. It's a whole other way of thinking and with different terminology than we are all used too. Keep reading and rereading until it sinks in.

4. Steel is iron and carbon in a particular ratio. Over 2% carbon and you get cast iron. Most knife steels are ~.70-1.2% carbon. Different attributes are attained by alloying with different elements. Vanadium, tungsten, Molybendum (spelling I know is wrong), nickel, and others. Different alloying elements and ratios of iron:carbon give us different steels such as 1084, 15N20, A2, CPM-154, CPM-3V, D2, O1, etc. To find out more, google steel composition chart. This one is awesome!
http://www.knifemakersdatabase.com/...MD/KnifemakingBladeSteelCompositionChart.html
Also remember that A particular type of steel might be different between suppliers. It is nice to get an idea of the exact composition of steel you'd be using for a project, but not always necessary.

Readers digest version: Alloying makes steel grades act differently from one another.
 
Last edited:
Carbon content is the more important thing . With increasing caron you get increasing percentage of martensite .Once you get all martensite structure then further carbon will give you carbides which are wear resistant particles. More than about .80 % carbon will give you increasing wear resistance .Knife steels normally don't go above about 1.2 % C. Other alloying elements add to other properties.

Below .80 C [hypoeutectic ] won't produce the best blades but above .80 C [hypereutectiod ] will .As a beginner steel 1080 steel has the benefit of easy to forge , easy to HT and produces an excellent blade..
 
Also, steels with vanadium, niobium, silicon, and certain other elements will form harder carbides which greatly improve wear resistance. The HRC of the steel is basically the indentation hardness of the bulk metal (non-carbide) matrix of the steel. The hardness of the carbides can be much higher than the tested HRC of the steel.
 
1. Buy or borrow from the library this book.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1566375436/ref=aw_d_detail?pd=1

.....Over 2% carbon and you get wrought iron.............

+1 on getting a good metallurgy book.

Slight correction on the carbon statement...Above 2% it is called CAST iron. Wrought iron is 0% carbon.


I'll try and explain it in a simplified way, but we have to understand what any analogy is about:

If we take simple steel and think of it as a mix of carbon and iron, we find out that .84% carbon is just enough to bind up with all the iron and make a perfect arrangement. Metallurgists call it the eutectoid. Knifemakers call it 1084 steel.

The iron and carbon can make several matrix shapes, called structures - the structure we want for hard steel blades is called Martensite. In this structure, one carbon atom is trapped inside eight iron atoms. This is one GRAIN. The grains are arrange in layers like bricks. The mortar would be called the Grain Boundary.
If allowed to sit at a high enough temperature, this mortar melts, and the grains combine into larger bricks, and then big blocks, and if left long enough and hot enough, into giant boulders. If the grains are small and tightly packed, the steel is very strong - like a good masonry brick wall. If they are large, it is easy for a crack to form along them - Like a crack on a cinder block wall. If they are gigantic, they may fall completely out of the matrix - like a boulder falling off a granite outcropping.

If we add extra carbon, it is hyper-eutectiod. The extra carbon gets tied up as hard iron carbides. If we add other elements that easily bind with carbon ( carbide formers), these ALLOY ingredients also make hard carbides. These alloys may also affect the grains by depositing themselves along the grain boundaries. Since these elements and their carbides don't melt as easily as the mortar holding the steel together, it prevents the grains from melting together into larger grains. This is called grain refinement.

The basic things that matter in a knife blade are called hardness, toughness,edge retention, and wear resistance. These are a combination of the steel choice, the heat treatment, and the blade geometry.

If we go back to an analogy again, we can think of a bar of steel as a type of cement wall. It has to have sand ( iron ), and Portland cement ( grain boundaries). We can also add pebbles (small carbides), small stones (large carbides). We could, but shouldn't, use big rocks.

If we mix the right amount of sand and Portland, we get what is normally called cement. It is moderately hard, has a very fine grain, and moderate strength. Because of its nature, it can wear away from erosion (lower toughness). If we add some pebbles, we get concrete, which is harder because of the harder pebbles. It has a slightly larger grain structure. If the amount of pebbles is right, this is very strong. The pebbles need to have just the right amount of room for the cement to fill all the voids. Too few pebbles, and there are large sections of cement with no pebbles, too many pebbles, and there is not enough cement to make all the joints strong. If we use small stones,instead of pebbles, the hardness will be more, but there will be longer and larger joints between them for the cement to try and hold together. This makes the wall easier to break ( more brittle), but also much harder and longer lasting. If the rocks are too big ( huge carbides or very large grains), the wall will fall apart easily under stress.

Now, back to metallurgy:
The hardness of the steel is controlled by the alloy ingredients.....and the HT.
The grain size is controled by the alloy ingredients....and the HT.
The toughness of the steel is controlled by the alloy ingredients.....and the HT.
The wear resistance is controlled by the alloy ingredients....and the HT.
The edge retention is controlled by the blade geometry....and the HT.

See any patterns here????? It is the choice of the steel type ( alloy) and the heat treatment that can make or break ( pun intended) a knife blade.

Hardness - the harder the carbides formed by the alloy ingredients, the harder the steel. This has tradeoffs, as pointed out in the cement wall analogy. Too hard and it breaks because it is brittle. Too large and it cracks between the hard places. Just right and you get hard and strong. The HT makes a very hard steel at first. This is so hard and brittle that it will break easily. It is tempered to make it softer. The amount of temper is controlled by the temperature. Just enough to make it still hard, but less brittle is what we want.
Grain Size - Grain size is mainly controlled by holding the steel at the right temperature as the carbon diffuses into the iron. At temperatures just a bit above the point where the steel becomes austenite, the grain remains small. This is between 1450°F and 1550°F. Go higher and the grains will start to melt together and grow rapidly into larger and larger grains.
Toughness - The type of alloy elements can make the grain boundaries stronger and more plastic. This allows some stretching and bending before they separate. This makes the steel tougher. The HT can be selected to make the grain size small and the steel a bit more plastic, so it is tougher. The higher tempering ranges for stainless steel give tougher blades.
Wear Resistance - The ability of the steel to resist eroding/abrading away is wear resistance. It determines how fast a blade needs to be re-sharpened, and how easily it is to re-sharpen the blade. The harder the steel the more it resists wear. The alloys that have harder carbides make for longer wearing edges. Lower tempering temperatures make for harder blades, which resist wear.
Edge Retention - All this hardness, and grain size, and toughness, and wear resistance sounds really good, but there is a catch. If it is too thin, the edge may just have minute pieces fall off as it cuts. This is called micro-chipping. At extreme hardness, the grain boundary fails, and the whole grain (or carbide) pops right off. Also, if too hard, it resists any attempt to bend, and fails rapidly ( brittleness).
Adjusting the thickness and angle of the edge (and blade) is the first way to control edge retention. The other way is picking a steel and HT regimen that fits the type of use the blade will get.



Going back to the wall analogy, if the cement is made so it has a proper ratio of sand and pebbles, it will resist a little flex in an earthquake. If earthquakes are expected, you might add some very flexible things, like metal wire, vinyl, and long fibers. This will allow some movement without catastrophic failure. If the rocks are too large, the cracks will run rapidly through the wall. If the wall is make from big stones and boulders, it will collapse and fall down.
If you just need a little wall to keep the rabbits out of your turnip patch, make it thin and hard.
If you need a wall to last a century, make it less hard, a bit tougher, and thicker.
If you need a wall to withstand a massive bombardment in an attack, make it from the biggest and hardest stones you can....and make it thick and round.
If the wall will be shaken occasionally, make it a bit more flexible by using smaller stones and good mortar.
If the wall will have to withstand massive earthquakes regularly, make it with straw in the mortar, and stones set so they can move from side to side without falling out. Slightly softer stones will survive better than harder ones.


What we get from this ramble is that understanding the part each one of these things plays in blade metallurgy and knife construction is how we get a blade that will survive the needed function.
A disposable scalpel blade that is used for one cut has a vastly different metal choice, blade geometry, and HT requirements than a machete that will need to hack brush in the jungle for years.
 
Basically to make it easy if you take 1080 and 1060 steel to hrc 59, 1080 will resist wear better but it will chip easier.

To understand hardness/hrc you must understand what the tester is testing. All a tester is doing is pushing a ball point sized divot into the steel which in all actuality is only testing edge deformation. You can never compare hrc hardnesses between different steels because you will never get a consistant answer. But if you took 1080 and hardened it to 60 hrc and another one at 57 hrc i can tell you that the higher hrc will hold its edge longer but will chip easier and i can also say that the lower hrc blade will be tougher and resist chipping.

The amount of carbon is the number one thing that helps with edge retention. I am nt that good at explanations
 
+1 on getting a good metallurgy book.

Slight correction on the carbon statement...Above 2% it is called CAST iron. Wrought iron is 0% carbon.


I'll try and explain it in a simplified way, but we have to understand what any analogy is about:

If we take simple steel and think of it as a mix of carbon and iron, we find out that .84% carbon is just enough to bind up with all the iron and make a perfect arrangement. Metallurgists call it the eutectoid. Knifemakers call it 1084 steel.

The iron and carbon can make several matrix shapes, called structures - the structure we want for hard steel blades is called Martensite. In this structure, one carbon atom is trapped inside eight iron atoms. This is one GRAIN. The grains are arrange in layers like bricks. The mortar would be called the Grain Boundary.
If allowed to sit at a high enough temperature, this mortar melts, and the grains combine into larger bricks, and then big blocks, and if left long enough and hot enough, into giant boulders. If the grains are small and tightly packed, the steel is very strong - like a good masonry brick wall. If they are large, it is easy for a crack to form along them - Like a crack on a cinder block wall. If they are gigantic, they may fall completely out of the matrix - like a boulder falling off a granite outcropping.

If we add extra carbon, it is hyper-eutectiod. The extra carbon gets tied up as hard iron carbides. If we add other elements that easily bind with carbon ( carbide formers), these ALLOY ingredients also make hard carbides. These alloys may also affect the grains by depositing themselves along the grain boundaries. Since these elements and their carbides don't melt as easily as the mortar holding the steel together, it prevents the grains from melting together into larger grains. This is called grain refinement.

The basic things that matter in a knife blade are called hardness, toughness,edge retention, and wear resistance. These are a combination of the steel choice, the heat treatment, and the blade geometry.

If we go back to an analogy again, we can think of a bar of steel as a type of cement wall. It has to have sand ( iron ), and Portland cement ( grain boundaries). We can also add pebbles (small carbides), small stones (large carbides). We could, but shouldn't, use big rocks.

If we mix the right amount of sand and Portland, we get what is normally called cement. It is moderately hard, has a very fine grain, and moderate strength. Because of its nature, it can wear away from erosion (lower toughness). If we add some pebbles, we get concrete, which is harder because of the harder pebbles. It has a slightly larger grain structure. If the amount of pebbles is right, this is very strong. The pebbles need to have just the right amount of room for the cement to fill all the voids. Too few pebbles, and there are large sections of cement with no pebbles, too many pebbles, and there is not enough cement to make all the joints strong. If we use small stones,instead of pebbles, the hardness will be more, but there will be longer and larger joints between them for the cement to try and hold together. This makes the wall easier to break ( more brittle), but also much harder and longer lasting. If the rocks are too big ( huge carbides or very large grains), the wall will fall apart easily under stress.

Now, back to metallurgy:
The hardness of the steel is controlled by the alloy ingredients.....and the HT.
The grain size is controled by the alloy ingredients....and the HT.
The toughness of the steel is controlled by the alloy ingredients.....and the HT.
The wear resistance is controlled by the alloy ingredients....and the HT.
The edge retention is controlled by the blade geometry....and the HT.

See any patterns here????? It is the choice of the steel type ( alloy) and the heat treatment that can make or break ( pun intended) a knife blade.

Hardness - the harder the carbides formed by the alloy ingredients, the harder the steel. This has tradeoffs, as pointed out in the cement wall analogy. Too hard and it breaks because it is brittle. Too large and it cracks between the hard places. Just right and you get hard and strong. The HT makes a very hard steel at first. This is so hard and brittle that it will break easily. It is tempered to make it softer. The amount of temper is controlled by the temperature. Just enough to make it still hard, but less brittle is what we want.
Grain Size - Grain size is mainly controlled by holding the steel at the right temperature as the carbon diffuses into the iron. At temperatures just a bit above the point where the steel becomes austenite, the grain remains small. This is between 1450°F and 1550°F. Go higher and the grains will start to melt together and grow rapidly into larger and larger grains.
Toughness - The type of alloy elements can make the grain boundaries stronger and more plastic. This allows some stretching and bending before they separate. This makes the steel tougher. The HT can be selected to make the grain size small and the steel a bit more plastic, so it is tougher. The higher tempering ranges for stainless steel give tougher blades.
Wear Resistance - The ability of the steel to resist eroding/abrading away is wear resistance. It determines how fast a blade needs to be re-sharpened, and how easily it is to re-sharpen the blade. The harder the steel the more it resists wear. The alloys that have harder carbides make for longer wearing edges. Lower tempering temperatures make for harder blades, which resist wear.
Edge Retention - All this hardness, and grain size, and toughness, and wear resistance sounds really good, but there is a catch. If it is too thin, the edge may just have minute pieces fall off as it cuts. This is called micro-chipping. At extreme hardness, the grain boundary fails, and the whole grain (or carbide) pops right off. Also, if too hard, it resists any attempt to bend, and fails rapidly ( brittleness).
Adjusting the thickness and angle of the edge (and blade) is the first way to control edge retention. The other way is picking a steel and HT regimen that fits the type of use the blade will get.



Going back to the wall analogy, if the cement is made so it has a proper ratio of sand and pebbles, it will resist a little flex in an earthquake. If earthquakes are expected, you might add some very flexible things, like metal wire, vinyl, and long fibers. This will allow some movement without catastrophic failure. If the rocks are too large, the cracks will run rapidly through the wall. If the wall is make from big stones and boulders, it will collapse and fall down.
If you just need a little wall to keep the rabbits out of your turnip patch, make it thin and hard.
If you need a wall to last a century, make it less hard, a bit tougher, and thicker.
If you need a wall to withstand a massive bombardment in an attack, make it from the biggest and hardest stones you can....and make it thick and round.
If the wall will be shaken occasionally, make it a bit more flexible by using smaller stones and good mortar.
If the wall will have to withstand massive earthquakes regularly, make it with straw in the mortar, and stones set so they can move from side to side without falling out. Slightly softer stones will survive better than harder ones.


What we get from this ramble is that understanding the part each one of these things plays in blade metallurgy and knife construction is how we get a blade that will survive the needed function.
A disposable scalpel blade that is used for one cut has a vastly different metal choice, blade geometry, and HT requirements than a machete that will need to hack brush in the jungle for years.

That really helps to explain the nuances. Seems like you can find the right steel if you know what you are trying to accomplish.
 
Bladesmith that is the best explanation I have ever read on HT and steel it has been saved as a favorite.
 
great post Stacy!
 
Sorry about that Stacy. Brain fart. I fixed my original post. Is there a face palm smiley?

I will recommend again the metallurgy book. It goes over in detail what Stacy just expelled. It takes a bit, but really understanding what is going on in the steel at a molecular metal is nice.
 
I'll add another attempt at an explanation, without delving too much into the metallurgy.

Edge retention is simply a measure of how long a knife will hold a high level of sharpness. In the General forums it is often conflated with wear resistance, but that is only one aspect. Besides being simply abraded down, knives can lose their sharpness by the edge rolling or chipping, and by having it eaten away by corrosion.

So basically you have four steel properties that control edge retention: Hardness, Toughness, Wear Resistance, and Corrosion Resistance.

Hardness is directly related to strength, so a harder steel will be more resistant to rolling and denting at the edge. Hardness is also related to wear resistance- a harder steel cannot be abraded as easily as a softer steel. Hardness is measured on the HRC scale.

Toughness is resistance to fracture, especially under impact (e.g. Chopping). So a tougher steel is less likely to chip or break. Very generally, toughness has an inverse relationship with hardness (i.e. a harder steel is less tough than a softer steel). Some steels and some heat treatments can achieve a higher level of both hardness and toughness than others, and these are the "grail" steels for chopping and hard use. Toughness is measured by the charpy impact tests.

Wear resistance is, well, the resistance to wear (abrasion) by whatever the knife is cutting. It is basically a function of hardness, but the HRC does not tell the whole story. Steel is not homogenous; there is a matrix of carbon and iron, with small chunks of carbides thrown in. The HRC measures the hardness of the matrix. However, the carbides can be much harder than the matrix, upwards of 80 HRC for some types. A steel with a high concentration of these carbides could have a relatively soft matrix (say 58 HRC) and yet outperform a harder "plain" steel in something like a cardboard cutting test. Note that the carbides do not really effect the strength of the steel, a soft matrix would still be prone to rolling/denting despite the carbides. Also, a carbide-rich steel can have trouble taking an extremely acute edge, say as in some kitchen knives or a straight razor. This is because the carbides can be so large that they cannot be contained within the edge, and since the bonds between the carbides and the steel matrix are relatively weak, they can be torn out of the edge and leave it jagged.

Corrosion resistance is straightforward. Basically stainless steels outperform carbon steels on this when used in a wet or otherwise corrosive environment. There are also steels which substitute nitrogen for carbon as a hardening element, which gives them extreme corrosion resistance.


So these are the steel factors that contribute to edge retention. But they obviously are not equally important for every purpose.

A utility knife for breaking down boxes or cutting carpet will have it's edge retention dominated by wear resistance (so long as it has adequate hardness and toughness in the steel matrix to withstand the cutting forces).

A straight razor or a sushi knife needs a very acute edge, so the steel must be very strong (hard) and be finely structured.

A chopper needs a high level of toughness, and enough hardness to resist edge deformation. Wear resistance is not as important because wood is not very abrasive, and in chopping the edge will inevitably be lost to rolling or chipping well before the steel gets worn down from abrasion.

A dive knife needs a highly corrosion resistant steel, obviously.



Also when comparing knives you can't forget the geometry. This can have a much larger effect than the subtle metallurgical differences between two steels. You can take a steel which would be considered an awful choice for some application, and make it outperform the ideal steel if it has much better geometry. Edge angle and thickness, grind type, and level of sharpness all have an effect on edge retention, beyond steel properties.
 
Some pretty amazing explanations here. A lot to digest. Thank you all so very much for the answers thus far. I can't thank you all for the time and effort put into these posts.
 
Back
Top