TSA and FBI still haven't learned jack

peacefuljeffrey

peacefuljeffrey

Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
1,308
This is on CNN today:
"Among the more exotic items is a deck of fake playing cards made of metal, with sharp edges, that can be thrown with deadly results. One fake key made in Japan conceals a knife and a smaller key that could be used to escape from handcuffs"
cnn story

I had to laugh when I read that they say metal playing cards could be "thrown with deadly results." It makes me think of the laughable '80s "ninja" movies with which we were inundated. Remember when you thought that "chinese stars" could be "deadly"? I don't believe that anymore. Nowadays when I think about it, I should have realized that something so light would barely cause annoyance, let alone critical injury or death, when thrown. But here we have the brainless ninnies at CNN (reporting what they were told by FBI?) that these fake playing cards made of metal with sharp edges can be thrown with "deadly results." These things are gonna penetrate so deeply as to cause death? Are we just dealing with a different definition of "deadly," where it now simply means "nasty"?? I think a simple test should apply: don't call the cards "deadly" unless they are known to have caused death when used as you are implying.

CNN and the rest of those gumball-machine news organizations are just out to titillate and frighten. Now I'm sure of it.

If there is anything in the story whose link I posted that is worth considering, it is the improvised-chemical threat. When someone can aquire two common chemicals which, when combined, will be incendiary, that is a big potential problem for airliners. And are they going to ban any kind of lighters or matches??

But as far as I'm concerned, they might as well stop being so worried about edged weapons on planes. The FBI and TSA should just be putting out constant public service announcements that say, "PASSENGERS -- DO NOT TOLERATE THREATS OF HIJACKING FROM ANYONE: POUNCE ON AND KILL ANY HIJACKERS, USING SUPERIOR NUMBERS AS YOUR BEST DEFENSE."

If this was our credo, and our government could be heard and seen loudly proclaiming this as its advice to U.S. citizens -- and they adopted it -- we would need never fear another hijacking.

---Jeffrey
 
In a manual recently prepared by the FBI (I can't link, but it's been posted on a number of forums), they include the dread "cartridge knife" (a small, useless blade that looks like a round of ammo; like that's gonna get by the screeners, anyway!

As if that weren't ridiculous enough, they have a pic of a "ring knife" that could not conceivably be used as a weapon. My mother has one of them in her sewing kit (it's probably 50 years old, at least), and it was used in a manufacturing plant to snip sewing thread. The blade is less than 1" long, blunt-ended, and there can't be more than 1/4" clearance between the back of the finger and the edge. I challenge Mr. FBI and Mr. TSA to cut me, or anyone else, with it!

As this evidences the approach now being taken toward airline security, I've decided to avoid unnecessary travel, drive when I absolutely must travel, and let those willing to be searched and herded like a herd of cattle feel free to do so. Normally, I take anywhere from 6 to 10 business-related flights per year. This year to-date, I've flown once, driven to other sites, and used teleconferencing extensively. A couple of like-minded co-workers and I have agreed to pursue car-pooling on any long trips we may be required to take in the future. I even passed on a very nice "reward" trip my employer offered to Las Vegas in October. Too far to drive, not "medically necessary," and the airport hassle ain't worth the free vacation. I no longer care whether the airline industry sinks or swims; it no longer affects me.
 
Billions of dollars put into home land security, and they STILL can't get the manufactuer of a Microtech card knife :rolleyes:
 
We've discussed this FBI document here before.

I'll just restate that my biggest disappointment with it is that the FBI felt the need to do this themselves instead of consulting with people who know the subject, people like we have here. We have several members here at bf.c whos special collecting interest is in concealable knives. They've spent years, even decades, studying the subject. They have extensive collections of not just the knives but also of catalogs, articles, photographs, etc. Not to mention a brain full of useful information. And they've probably spent many hours dreaming up variants of their own.

Instead of going to a few gun shows and buying one-of-each of whatever was on the fleamarket table, they should have sought out these experts and tapped into their knowledge, collections, and database.

This is only symptomatic of the major problem that I see with the FBI time and time again: they have a very serious ego/attitude problem. It's sometimes called, "not-invented-here syndrome."

"Stand back. We are professionals. We don't need your help. We don't need a bunch of rank amateurs like you. We're the <explicative deleted> FBI! We can figure this out for ourselves."

And this becomes a bigger problem when you realize that the FBI is the roll model for law enforcment agencies throughout the US and, indeed, the world.

The case of "Manufacturer unknown" on several of those knives which have manufacturer's trademarked logos branded right on them should make the FBI red with embaracement. It's detective work like that which solved the Unibomber case... after how many years? It's detective work like that that found the missing hard drive at Los Alamos... behind a copy machine? And it's detective work like that that's supposed to solve the Olympic Bombing, and the anthrax letters?

The Unibomber case was not solved by the stunning detective work of a trained, professional FBI agent. It was solved when, against the FBI's advice, the guy's "manifesto" was published and then happened to be seen by his brother who recognized the rantings and turned him in.

The Los Alamos hard drives weren't found by repeated FBI searches of the building nor by the public broasting of lab staff. They were found when an unknown person called and suggested they look behind the photocopier. A bigger dope-slap there could hardly be.

The FBI has forgotten that the I in FBI is for investigation. It is not the roll of "investigators" to create information. The roll of investigators is to uncover information that already exists and to put that information together to reach conclusions. They don't invent 1 and they don't invent 2. Their job is to put 1 plus 2 together and come up with 3.

This document is an attempt to create information. And it's a piss-poor job of it.
 
Saw the article myself and couldn't help but wonder what their point was. The conclusion I drew was the same as jeffrey's - that no matter how intrusive or abusive the government gets they will never be able to keep edged weapons off airplanes... so who are they trying to fool? All they succeed in doing is spending boatloads of our money and pissing off the flying public without increasing safety one iota.

Arm pilots and inform passengers they need to grow a pair. Somebody tries something on an airplane rip 'em to shreads. Enough is enough.

It's ok to look for guns and sniff (with machines or canines) for explosives... but sharp objects are a lost cause.
 
No one agency has a handle on all aspects of homeland secuity. Nor can we expect, or should expect that they feds will have the collective knowledge and wisdom of some of the people who frequent this site.

We need to put things in proper context and perspective. Feds, like most of the population, do not share our love of edged weapons/tools for the most part. Knowing this to be true, should we expect them to be as well versed [ as some here are ] on the subject? I think that is being unrealistic.

To exptrapolate here: Someone posts a question on the forum most have had the answer to for years through being involved with edged weapons and pointy objects. Do we castinate them for their lack of knowledge?

The feds do not have the same insight people here have, nor is it realistic to believe they would or should. It takes years to speak intelligently about various aspects of edged weapons, and a desire to obtain that knowledge through research, questions for others of like minds on a forum like this, etc.

Do we then make fun of them when they are new to the game of concealed weapons, edged weapons, unconventional weapons? if so, why not make fun of the newbies here who are also less informed than the rest of us?

I spend hours a day on the forums, does anyone believe the feds have the time to sit at a computer terminal and talk about knives, concealed weapons, or any other number of subjects one finds here on the forums?

They may never catch all the weapons that can be brought on board, and may never succeed in that endeavor. Knowing this, do we not atttempt to negate at least some of the potentials from boarding with concealed weapons?

It sounds like some are saying that because they are not catching everything they might as well not try to catch anything. Thats not something thats acceptable to me. I want them making an effort, whether that effort is thorough enough to stop most problems or not.
The alternative is to do nothing and check no one. No, we need the attempts to thwart the next attack. We may not be able to stop all of the potentials but we may stop a few.

We give newbies here a break when they don't have the knowledge others more informed possess here. We are then to whine about the feds lack of knowledge in the same area? Too much disparity to my thinking, we make allowances for some but hold the feds to some double standard.

Keep in mind here that the feds are human as well and as prone to mistakes in judgement and actions as the rest of us. Easy to sit in a chair and bitch about their lack of knowledge when actually the ones whining could be contacting the feds and making them aware of these types of forums and the information they may gleen from the posts herein.

Anyone done that who's bitchin about their lack of knowledge?

They haven't increased security one iota? Please explain your sources that prove that statement is correct for us. You must be privy to some real classified documents to make the statement above. Or was that just an opinion stated as fact?

Brownie
 
does anyone believe the feds have the time to sit at a computer terminal as talk about knives, concealed weapons, or any other number of subjects one finds here on the forums?
Click to expand...

I honestly think that that would be a very productive use of their time. They seem to have time to shop the fleamarket tables at gun shows.

The real experts, the people who have decades of experience, who've studied this subject, amassed collections of artifacts, books, articles, and pictures, who have devoted a substantial fraction of their lives and energy to this subject, are here. Why not tap into that exisiting database?

The FBI could learn a lot more about concealable knives by taking a few of the members here out for coffee (and I honestly suspect that any one of the members I'm thinking of would gladly hold forth for the FBI to help their country) than by spending the same time shopping the junk tables at gun shows.

If an FBI agent called on me and said, "Chuck, we'd like to talk to you about concealable knives." I'd say, "Come on in. I'll gladly share all that I know, I'll show some pieces out of my collection. You can borrow them to photograph them if you like. And I'll introduce you to some folks I know who know a lot more about the subject than I do."

If an FBI agent came here to BF.C and said, "I'm a newbie and I'm interested in this subject for a report that I'm writting, what can anyone tell me?" he would receive the same generous, helpfull, and respectufull assistance that we normally extend to polite newbies. And he'd find out that Microtech is a Federally-registered trademark of a licensed Florida business with national and international sales and distribution.

As the Good Book says, "Ask and you shall receive." The FBI's ego is such that they won't ask. And how can they be an "investigation" agency if they won't ask?



Has security increased post 9/11? Yes, it has! And in a big way.

Is our air-travel system 100% airtight secure? No. But we're a whole lot closer and a whole lot safer today.

I, myself, think that they're doing a good job at an impossible task.
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
They haven't increased security one iota? Please explain your sources that prove that statement is correct for us. You must be privy to some real classified documents to make the statement above. Or was that just an opinion stated as fact?

Brownie
Click to expand...

It was an opinion stated as an opinion. That's what people do on forums.
 
I think it is missing the point to argue about whether the new security measures actually work. I doubt that those who proposed them ever really expected them to work. Their purpose is to reassure people that "something is begin done about the problem". It doesn't matter whether the "something" is effective or not.

--Bob Q
 
bquinlan:
I consider that a fair statement.

Gollnick: Also agree with your assessment.

Stay safe

Brownie
 
bquinlan; precisely. I see the same thing in the Army all of the time. Things are done not for the value of the actual endevour, but to check off an item on the training schedule so it can be briefed to the higher-ups. It doesn't matter that the training presented was bogus and incomplete, it will still be briefed as having been performed and the commander will get credit for it. Also, FWIW, I agree with mdshooter. The passengers of Flight 93 proved the effectiveness of resistance to terrorists. Sadly they had to die to do it, but they prevented others from dying along with them. I consider their sacrifice an example for the rest of us to follow in a similar situation.
 
If somone was posting about carrying a bunch of cartridge knives so people would think he is carrying "only" cartridges I'm pretty sure people here would make fun of him. If he came across pretending to be an expert and advised people that crucifix knives and throwing cards are great weapons people would think he was an idiot. I got into knife collecting when I was 12 and learned a lot about which products were good or not just talking to a dealer a few times. All they had to do was ask the question here, ask some of the popular self-defense instructors or knifemakers. This report looks like a highschool student got a hold of a Bud k catalog and wrote a lame "report" for his friends.
 
Originally posted by bquinlan
... Their purpose is to reassure people that "something is begin done about the problem". It doesn't matter whether the "something" is effective or not....
Click to expand...

Right on the money.

It's like "gun control" vs. "crime control".

When you explain the difference to people who have no interest in firearms, the answer is always the same: "Yea, THAT'S what I want - crime control." To these people, the fact that government is "doing something" by pushing for more and more "gun control" sounds pretty reassuring. :(
 
Back in the 70s a guy named Ricky Jay wrote a book called "Cards As weapons". You can actually still find it in a lot of libraries. He showed up on several talk shows and gave demonstrations, and this guy could sink a standard playing card about halfway into a watermelon from pretty far away. The book is kind of tongue in cheek and features photos of him flipping cards at a topless model, but for the most part he was for real.

I think if that guy got ahold of a deck of sharpened metal cards he might be able to hurt somebody. But probably not anybody else.
 
agencies like FBI and NASA among others have a common problem; the people that are heard and seen in the media are usually not their best and brightest. they have inherent problems in concentrating on appearences instead of results. But the majority of that agency, the 80% that really put out, are highly skilled and hard working people. The technology developing is amazing, and continues to improve yearly, both through Govt sponsored research programs and private. We just need to fight back when govt encroaches too far.
 
Toolmaker, Some of us like those 80's ninja movies:D Namely my 4yr old daughter Morgan and me. But I agree with the rest tho the N'th degree. Cleaver and his ninja moppet Morgan:D :D
 
True, most of the knives in the FBI/TSA documents are ones we'd consider a joke and laugh at if someone pulled them on us.

But then, would do the same thing to someone with a box cutter.

THe sheeple are very much scared though, as we very sadly proved. :(
 
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