TSA has their heads up their a**

A

Art M

Joined
Dec 29, 1998
Messages
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I was looking for my Spyderco Ronin earlier today and couldn't find it anywhere. All of a sudden it hits me - it's in a compartment in my laptop backpack that recently I've been flying all over the country with :eek:

This backpack, along with knife, has been through the airport x-ray machines in Philadelphia, Chicago, Fort Lauderdale, and Phoenix in the last 3 weeks as carry-on luggage. And not once was the knife noticed! In fact, in Fort Lauderdale they actually searched the backpack because they noticed my Surefire Executive and thought it looked suspicious. This is absolutely incredible. I did not intentionally try to sneak the knife on the plane - I forgot it was even in my bag. But can you imagine what "some people" are intentionally sneaking on our domestic flights?! Kind of scary to think about.

Art
 
That's scary. Good thing you're not replying from Guantanamo. I recently bought Surefire E2e and was wondering if they'd give me grief over carrying it on a plane because it doesn't look "normal". I think I still might leave it at home, rather than give it to some security guard just because he wants it.

I was thinking the other day, someone should start a business for people who have to have items "confiscated" by TSA that ships their stuff home for them from the airport rather than letting screeners go on confiscatory shopping sprees in people's pockets. Would probably never be allowed though just because they like it the way it is.
 
UnixDork said:
I was thinking the other day, someone should start a business for people who have to have items "confiscated" by TSA that ships their stuff home for them from the airport rather than letting screeners go on confiscatory shopping sprees in people's pockets. Would probably never be allowed though just because they like it the way it is.
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There are two of them. One is the US Postal Service. I can't remember the name of the other; some woman started it up about a year ago.

The problem is, many items they would confiscate, they can give you more grief over than just taking the little thing.
 
Took my Spyderco Salt on a couple of plane flights recently in the same way. I was wondering about that H1 steel....
 
It is not necessary that airport security be 100% perfect to accomplish its goal.

Some time ago, the media tried to make hay out of a report that found that TSA screeners missed simulated weapons in bags something like 30% of the time. But that's fine, really.

If you're a terrorist, you face only a 30% chance of success.

The goal of airport screening is not to catch 100% of problems. The goal is to create risk for the bad guys. The goal is not to make it impossible to hijack an airplane, just to make it to risky to be worth trying.

My sainted father used to say, "A sample of one doth make fools of us all." In other words, you can always find one case of something or another if you look for it, the exception that proves the rule, if you will.

It's not that TSA has their heads up their a**, it's that you don't understand their purpose and function.
 
I agree with Gollnick.
Also, you have to remember that federalizing something like airport security is not neccessarily about bettering it. Its more about the government saying that "this is our responsibility and were are to blame if we fail." As of 911, there has been no failure.
You cannot view a buisness man accidentally getting his knife through security as failure. Failure=catastrophy. These have been avoided.
Either the BGs are no longer trying, or its become harder for them to do their BG thing. Either way, TSA has been successful.
 
it isn't scarey. It's interesting but not scarey, nor surprising. The entire TSA experience is a charade, designed to con Americans into feeling safe. It is also a power grab by the Federal government and a gross infringement on our civil liberties and constitutional rights because in order to travel you need to submit to a search by government authorities.

Why would a sharp or pointy object be an issue anyway? Becuase of 9/11? It makes no sense...now passengers understand the risks of letting hijackers have their way, and cockpit doors are locked and policies and practices are different. There is absolutetly no danger whatsoever in bringing pointy objects aboard and in the TSA not finding yours.
 
cognitivefun said:
There is absolutetly no danger whatsoever in bringing pointy objects aboard
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Tell that to the folks aboard flights 11, 93, 175, and 77.
 
Gollnick said:
Tell that to the folks aboard flights 11, 93, 175, and 77.
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it wasn't the pointy objects. It was the attitude of cooperation, along with open cockpit doors. None of that is the case anymore. Passengers are vigilant. Cockpit doors are locked. If someone grabs a flight attendant they can threaten the FA with a plastic knife (or other sharp object) that can slit a throat pretty easily but the passengers would subdue that person and the pilots would not cooperate.

That's why I say: The great pointy object search is a charade.
 
Gollnick said:
Tell that to the folks aboard flights 11, 93, 175, and 77.
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Tell that to the people who legally carried knives on flights for decades prior to that. Yeah, "a sample of one makes fools of us all" certainly applies.
Just another way "we" deny any kind of personal responsibility, and demonize an inanimate object, when the inanimate object wasn't, and isn't, the problem.
 
I've often said that 9-11 will never happen again. Notice that we haven't had a hijacking in the US since. The paradigm has changed. The 9-11 hijackers ruined the good-old hijack for everyone forever,

Never again will four men armed with box cutters be able to defeat 190 people armed with meal trays, magazines, and pillows.

Any martial artist will tell you, one-on-one is perfectly winnable. Two-on-one is quite doable. Three-on-one gets tricky but it's managable. Four-on-one is though. But, sixty-on-one? Not even Bruce Lee with an Uzi couldn't stand. No. A 9-11-style attack will not work anymore.

That's why I'm not to concerned about a knife or two slipping aboard.

Personally, I think the prohibition against pocket knives aboard planes is silly. But that's not the point here.

TSA's job is not to catch every violation. TSA's job is to create risk for would-be violators. And they're doing that very well.

A lot of you don't remember the bad old days either, of six 747s departing within ten minutes of each other and one line open at the security check point manned by an old guy with Coke-bottle glasses dozing behind the X-Ray machine and some highschool dropout watching the metal detector go off. I used to carry my keys through the metal detector deliberately and when it went off, I'd fain surprise, pat my pockets, and say, "Oh, it was these," while producing the keys. The guy would smile and beckon me on not thinking about all the knives that were also in my pockets.

Today, the X-ray scanners are way better quality and the people are awake and studying that screen. The metal detector people insist that everyone get through legitimately. But, despite this increased vigilance, the lines are moving much, much faster because there are now ten lines open staffed by a hundred TSA people.

Personally, I think they're doing a great job, they are accomplishing their goals, and at the same time making air travel is easier. I really hate to see people bad-mouthing them just because they missed one or another knife.
 
As an airline pilot who returned to active duty Air Force I'm absolutely embarrassed to be associated with the TSA screening process. I've flown over 100 combat missions overseas, been in the military for over 21 years and invariably was the "threat" getting an extra pat-down while in my airline uniform after returning from a 4-month overseas military deployment supporting the war on terror. Like it or not this country must recognize the real threat out there, throw "politically correct" out the window and start profiling categories of individuals who "fit the terrorist mold".
I can't count how many times a 90-year old wheelchair bound lady in Fargo, N.D. is getting an extra security search while other "suspicious" characters are sauntering through security without a second glance. Recently, while boarding an airline out of Kansas City I was told I couldn't carry a sun-visor from a '68 GMC pickup onto the plane because of the 1/2" long metal piece protruding from the end! I do not worry about knives, nail clippers and the such as an airline pilot, but am worried that the politically correct society that we've become has made us immune to reality.
 
Gollnick said:
I've often said that 9-11 will never happen again. Notice that we haven't had a hijacking in the US since. The paradigm has changed. The 9-11 hijackers ruined the good-old hijack for everyone forever,
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I think you're right. 9/11 will never happen again. The risk is there now, regardless of any security screening. That's why I think the screening is unecessary which doesn't induce a lot of patience with it. I think all the screening stuff is only being done to give the illusion of security. I don't think it's a government grab for power (although I do think that kind of thing happens) I think it's more like a welfare for airlines to keep them from going out of business because too many people wouldn't feel safe about flying otherwise.
 
I do not worry about knives, nail clippers and the such as an airline pilot, but am worried that the politically correct society that we've become has made us immune to reality.

A friend of mine is a security manager at MIA. He said the biggest numbers of complaints are from the flight crews; who correctly point out that with or without a box cutter, there is nothing to keep them from flying their jumbos through the terminal if that is what they are in the mood to do.

n2s
 
Last year I went through security at an airport, while unknown to me there was my SOG multi tool in my briefcase. Oooops! I made my flight to another airport, where I had to make a connecting flight. At the time, the TSA was doing spot checks with ticketed passengers before they boarded their flights. I now had a decision to make.

I could have tossed it in the trash-but didn't like that. I could have reported it to the TSA, but darned if I wanted to give somebody a nice multi tool, who wouldn't have the smarts to figure out it's operation. I picked door number three: I waited untill the boarding line formed, at which time I stepped right behind the scruffiest looking dreg about to get on my flight. As we got closer, he was pulled out of line, leaving me in my exhilirated state to board the plane with my multi tool. Palms sweating, heart pounding in my chest, I boarded my flight and took my seat. Is this what it felt like for an East German to get past the guards at the old Berlin Wall? Dangerous living my friends! :rolleyes:
 
My problem with the "make it risky = success" model is just this: that model assumes that what we see as significant risk (you posed 70%) deters. I submit that such an assumption is open to doubt. "They" don't look a risk the way you/we do. They care about killing to make a point. While they don't want to fail in that mission, "failure" is not getting caught or even dying. I would venture to say that if OBL thought one team in three or four or five or six could crash another jet, he'd send out the teams ASAP.

As for passengers overcoming six death commandos with, say, Spyderco Milies, how would the second dozen get over the bodies of the first dozen stacked in the path? It's a pretty narrow "pass" to hold against civilians throwing light plastic trays. We'd better restrict them to box-cutters.

As for what I want, I want no knives on board, armed Air Marshalls, and armed, trained personnel in the cockpit behind a locked, tough door. THEN we'll throw plastic trays.

EDIT: make that "hand-gun-proof" door and bulkhead.
 
EDIT: make that "hand-gun-proof" door and bulkhead.

Why bother; when you can just sever the hydrolic lines that run either along the cabins floor or ceiling. If terrorism is a problem, and an onboard firefight a real risk, then the entire airframe needs to be redesigned. My bias is to allow everybody to go armed. The aircraft is still just as likely to fall from the skies; but, it would take a platoon to actually gain control of the thing and turn it into a guided bomb. Then again, the TSA could simply equip every aircraft with explosive demo charges. One deviation from the flight plan and the thing is instantly vaporized. No more worries about aircraft flying into buildings.....so much for flying the friendly skies.

n2s
 
I have a different point of view. I think TSA is very successful, you're just looking in the wrong direction to see their success.

TSA and related agencies are as much in the impression management business as they are in the safety business. They realize they can't be 100% effective all the time, but they can create the impression that we are safe, that they are effective at protecting the public, and that a 9/11-style attack will not occur again.

This keeps the airlines in business and people flying. We feel more confident in air travel, and that is the point. We have faith in their efforts and are willing to fly. Personally I would feel safer knowing that everyone on board had a good sized knife--the ratio of good guys to bad guys would give me a heightened confidence in air travel. But the X-ray and metal detectors are very reassuring to most of the public.

I remember seeing cement baracades around the Washington monument in the weeks following 9/11. How pathetic to believe they would stop an air attack. But they and the guards LOOKED imposing and I'm sure offered symbolic reassurance to most visitors (nevermind that only the bad guy visitors would have been armed in DC)
 
A friend of mine is a security manager at MIA. He said the biggest numbers of complaints are from the flight crews; who correctly point out that with or without a box cutter, there is nothing to keep them from flying their jumbos through the terminal if that is what they are in the mood to do.
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Years ago, I dated a gal who was in charge of preventing hospital-contracted infections in a wing of a major hospital. This business of hospital-contracted infections is actually quite serious. The first-line of defense is simply hand washing. Each patient room is provided with a sink with soap and paper towels, etc. The biggest problem she was having was getting the doctors -- of all people -- to cooperate. Each time she'd challenge a doctor, the doctor would point to his name tag and say, "Little lady, I'm a doctor. I went to medical school. I know all about infections. I am seriously concerned about hospital-contracted infections. I've lost patients to them. But, when I went to check on Mrs. Smith, I didn't touch her at all. I just checked her chart, asked her a few questions, and adjusted her treatment schedules accordingly. So, I didn't need to wash my hands." And you know what? The doctor is right. If he's not touching the patient, he really doesn't need to wash. But the problem with that is that when the rest of the staff sees that the doctors don't wash their hands, they stop washing theirs. So, I suggested that she stop approaching the doctors with a plea to wash their hands to prevent infection and start appealing to the doctors as respected leaders in the medical community to wash their hands as a model of good behavior to the rest of the staff. It worked.

Pilots and flight crews need to do the same thing.
 
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