Tubes vs. Rods for handle attachment

Varga Knives

Varga Knives

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Aug 12, 2006
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I'm a newb. I ground only four blades and I have a few more tweaks before I send them out for HT. Now I am rethinking how I want to attach the handles. Most of the blades are on the large side and I am going with canvas micarta for the handle materials. I was planning to go with tubes because of the added strength the mechanical fastening of the flare would give and I also like the look. But as I am learning some more it seems that as long as the epoxy is done right a solid rod should be better in that it would have a higher shearing strength than a hollow tube. Also on the plus side of the rod is it seems a whole lot easier for a first timer to do. In either case I am looking to go with 1/4" and in all likelyhood they should both do the job just fine. What do you guys think?
 
strider214 said:
I'm a newb. I ground only four blades and I have a few more tweaks before I send them out for HT. Now I am rethinking how I want to attach the handles. Most of the blades are on the large side and I am going with canvas micarta for the handle materials. I was planning to go with tubes because of the added strength the mechanical fastening of the flare would give and I also like the look. But as I am learning some more it seems that as long as the epoxy is done right a solid rod should be better in that it would have a higher shearing strength than a hollow tube. Also on the plus side of the rod is it seems a whole lot easier for a first timer to do. In either case I am looking to go with 1/4" and in all likelyhood they should both do the job just fine. What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

Either way you will end up with a very strong knife if everything is done right. Prep, cleaning and using decent epoxy is important. Make sure to drill some smaller holes in the tang for "glue rivets" too. I think the glue rivets are important.

For your first knives I would keep it simple and use some solid rod. (or tube if you already have it, there isn't much difference execution wise) The next simplest would be the tube and then chamfered tube for a nice look. Flared tube is awesome but I'd get a setup and practice flaring it first. The flaring setup will cost a fair bit too, you really need some dies and an arbor press or good vise to do it right.

I use flared tube on all of my handles, I really like the rivet effect they have as well as the looks.

I personally will not let a knife leave the shop without some sort of mechanical fasteners but that is overkill for sure. I did a test where I drilled out the tube fasteners on a knife and tried to knock off the epoxied G10 scales.... long story short a 3# sledge would not budge them.

Corby bolts are also very nice as you can get the rod look with the benefit a mechanical fastener. I'd wait on them too though as it complicates things a bit more as well as raising your starting cost.
 
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Properly peened rods are a very secure mechanical fastener as well. Just like flairing tubes it takes practice, and 1/4" isn't the easiest to peen, but it was used for a long time before epoxy glues were around.


-Xander
 
I agree with Xander and Daniel. All I can add is that if you go with tubes and want the option of using them for lanyards, use 5/16" OD tubing. The ID is just about 1/4" and this will fit common materials like 550 cord better. 1/4" OD tubing can be difficult to fit strong cord through.
 
just a thought:
flared tubes because you like them and solid hidden pinns as an extra
 
Hengelo_77 said:
just a thought:
flared tubes because you like them and solid hidden pinns as an extra
Click to expand...

extra what? pain in the arse? Yes, of course you could get some extra shear strength with hidden pins... or tubes, plus corby rivets, or tubes, corby rivets and loveless rivets for that matter. As eluded to by both of the fine gentlemen above, the strength of most of these handle configurations is more than adequate as is. The simple end of it is that with flared tubes, you have a mechanical fastener plus an epoxy holding everything together, and the likelyhood of something damaging the handle enough to break off the tang would most often times be enough to damage the handle material enough to be replaced anyway, so i wouldn't worry too much.

it's the poor man's first four knives... i think he's got enough on his plate.
 
LOL. I watched Dan's vids in the past and that was a big inspiration for going with the flared tubes (like the electric arbor press :)). The extra investment probably won't be worth it right now anyway though.

Do I really need to peen the rods? I'll have to look for a tutorial on it.

Thanks to all.
 
Peening rods is much easier with smaller pins, but in th simplest terms its just hammering the ends to smash them out latteraly. For 1/4" brass rod I would use a 20oz ball pein hammer (use the ball side) and not worry so much about turning the edge over, like a mushroom, but just enough to flair the shank to fill the hole. Take the hammer an put your thumb on the anvil, hit your thumbnail around the cuticle, if it hurts your hitting to hard. That's all the force you need, maybe just a tiny bit more. Just tap the rod 10,000 times in circular patterns.

Polish the ball on the hammer to a very high polish and it will leave polished marks on the pin. Here is my 7oz ball pein I use on 1/8" pins...

2012-02-27084406.jpg



-Xander
 
10,000 x 3 pins x 2 sides = dead arm. Messin' with an fng, huh? If I use a 200 oz. hammer would I only need to hit it 1000 times? How 'bout if I hit it really hard? Once?

Brass? Is stainless okay to use on carbon steel?
 
I always peen the pins on handles but have a hard time counting to 10,000. I think I hit them a little harder too....not going to try it on my thumb. Most important tip is to leave them protruding the right length..about the same as the diameter of the pin.

different methods can get the same end result, a handle that wont come off unless the pins are drilled out.
 
strider214 said:
10,000 x 3 pins x 2 sides = dead arm. Messin' with an fng, huh? If I use a 200 oz. hammer would I only need to hit it 1000 times? How 'bout if I hit it really hard? Once?

Brass? Is stainless okay to use on carbon steel?
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10,000 times is an exagerration, but only to make my point. Lots of light strikes are needed. Hitting too (very) hard can cause a secondary bulge further down the pin and possibly crack your scales. 1/4" pin is big pin stock and requires more force when striking, but not as much as you may think. Stainless is fine. I think one diameter sticking up is too much generally, I use about half a pin diameter.

Not messin with a fng, just trying to help.


-Xander
 
One thing to add- use an F drill bit to drill the holes through your steel and handle material. It is hard forcing a 1/4 inch through a 1/4 inch hole.This way it will slide through easily. Sand lightly the tube or pin with 220 grit sandpaper to give it surface for the epoxy to adhear to.
 
Xander- I knew it was an exaggeration and it was just a stupid reply by me.

All- I made up my mind to go with tubes for a few different reasons. I don't have an anvil or even anything hard (believe it or not) to strike against. Also, I can't quite wrap my mind around the dynamics of what is going on on the underside of what is being struck. Assuming the pin is already epoxied in place won't the strikes have a chance of breaking the epoxy? I think I am over compicating it and as long as you don't miss with the hammer everything should work out. Either way I'd like to do both, but tubes for the first few.

Thanks.
 
Okay, so I sent 6 blades to Darrin for heat treating and I want to be ready to finish them when they get back. I took the plunge and bought the flaring dies, arbor press and even the eyelet dies for sheaths. The problem I'm running into is trying to buy the tubes. Maybe there isn't a big difference between my available options (.020 vs. .028, 304 vs. NS) but I am really looking to pick up some nickel silver, 1/4" OD, .020" thickness. Can't find any in stock anywhere. I would appreciate any suggestions to locate some.

Thanks.
 
Mark, I'll check and see if I have one in the shop. If I do I'll send it to you in the package with your blades. I'll try to remember to check tomorrow but if I forget don't be afraid to remind me. In the meantime have you checked Alpha Knife Supply? They usually have a good stock of tubing. I know Jantz & K&G have NS tubing but I'm not sure about the wall thickness.
 
I think you will be good with anything from .020 to .035 or so as far as wall thickness goes. I have flared all of those thicknesses in different materials with good luck for the most part. To me .020-.028 is ideal.

You can go with a thicker wall easier as you go up in tube diameter by the way.

I'll let you know if I see any nickle silver tube anywhere... I remember one of the major suppliers having some.

You know I just changed the oil and muffler bearings on that on that electric arbor press and man is it smooth! :D
 
Darrin- a big thank you for the offer and that would be great but I won't hold you to it :). I had checked Alpha, Jantz, TKS, USA Knifemaker, Pops, Trugrit, Grainger, Fastenal and probably some others I can't remember but I had never heard of K&G. They don't specify their thickness but I can always call them tomorrow. They also look like a great go-to site so thanks for the reference!!

Dan- thanks for the info! .028 is readily available and I actually turned it down from some brick and mortar stores yesterday. Oops. Do you primarily go with .25" or vary the diameter to go with the handle size?

Another question that's been nagging at me I thought to wait to ask until I could research it a little more or try it myself but now seems as good a time as any. At what point in the tube setting process do you finish the handles? It's hard to explain my exact meaning but I would think you need to have the handle thickness as pretty much final, then put the whole thing together and flare the tubes before finishing the hanldle contouring. Does that sound about right? How much sanding on the handle at the tube can you get away with? I think in the future I need to make sure the tubes will go only at the high spots of the handle and not where I will be doing any more aggressive contouring.

Thanks again to both you guys and to the others who impart their knowledge here. Your help and this forum has been absolutely invaluable.
 
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