Tulwar blades?

[The_Monkeyboy]

Does anybody know where I can find functional tulwar blades? I am doing another research project for a book, and I would like to compare how well tulwars cut compared to European sabres. I can find all kinds of original and reproduction grips for tulwars. But the only blades I can find are either current production Indian damascus blades, which have a poor reputation for edge retention, lack of flexibility, and just about everything else. Or they are on old tulwars of unknown quality and origin. I don't mind using an old one, but I don't want to damage something that is actually valuable. Nor would it be a fair comparison if the old tulwar blade I use is the equivalent of a swap-meet special or tourist trinket. So, does anybody have any ideas? Are there any custom blade makers out there that cost less than a kidney and a testicle for a basic, no-frills kind of blade?

-Mb

 

[KP513]

This is something I too have been interested in for a while. Broadly speaking, the avenues I have heard for real tulwars tend to lean in the direction of antiques. Cold Steel's model tends towards a European blade, as noted in its description (though many antiques are Indian handles with European cavalry blades). However, I have heard that Vince Evans is a custom maker particularly known for Indo-European swords. I don't know his prices, though his excellent reputation would lead me to believe that it wouldn't be inexpensive.

 

[The_Monkeyboy]

The Cold Steel tulwar is just their 1796 Light Cavalry blade slapped on a shiny tulwar-shaped handle. And while that is actually something that happened a lot in real life, I already have one of their 1796 sabers as one of the swords I am testing. Adding a fancy (but not completely authentic) handle to the same blade won't change much. I already have one older handle coming, and I will probably pick up a new production reproduction handle some time soon. They are usually under $60 for a nice new one. Older ones can be had for $20-40 all day any day. It is the blade that seems to be my biggest issue. There are many "antique" tulwars for sale out there. But I again run into the issue of my lack of knowledge regarding them. Over the internet, I can't tell what it a decent blade, and what is tourist crap. I will try to track Vince Evans. My other option is to just get one of Cold Steel's Shamshirs. The blade shape is nearly the same, and appears to be different enough from the 1796 to give me something closer to an actual tulwar to test. If I really want to go all out, I can probably yank the blade from it and have it mounted in a tulwar hilt. A bit of grinding to get the tang to fit, and some cutler's resin, and poof. A tulwar...

 

[KP513]

Yeah, the Shamshir blade would give you that same heavy curve to it, though the blade profile of talwars I have seen in museums tend to be thicker towards the tip than a shamshir.

 

[gator68]

Depends on your budget and your aims but the cold steel tulwar would be an interesting data point. Same blade, different handle? You'd see exactly what difference the handle makes to handling and how that translates to cutting.

 

[The_Monkeyboy]

Okay. Here is where I am now. I have managed to get my hands on a few historical tulwar grips. Thus far, they are tiny. My wife and daughters (9 and 12) like them. And they fit their hands perfectly. Me? Not so much. But it still gives me some idea of how they were constructed. I have also managed to get an old, real Tulwar for cheap on ebay. It is one of those good news/bad news things. The good news is I managed to get a real one. Tempered blade, correct patina, still scary sharp. The problems (there are several) are: It is actually a historic blade. Not a cheap knock-off. It actually appears to have rack numbers and the scabbard has material covering it that both appears to be original to the scabbard, and matches the Khaki that the British used for uniforms and accoutrements. I know this because I compared it to several pre-WWI British pieces I have in my collection of firearms and related stuff. It also has the same small handle as the other grips I have bought. And the biggest down side is that my wife saw it, and knows that it is a historical piece. And she would likely use it on me if I tried to go hack through random test media. Besides, it fits her hand and she has claimed it if the zombies ever come. So it is useless for my research project.

The good news is that I have found a small shop in Punjab that can make me larger hilts. I will check with them on blades, but if they don't have any, I have at least one shop in the Czech Republic that is more than willing to make a functional blade for me for around 100 Euros. That is roughly $125. For that price I might well have them make me a sharp one and a practice one. Finally, I and having Arms and Armor grind my Cold Steel 1796 sabre down to more historically correct dimensions. That is something that I have seen several places online about the Cold Steel blades. That they are far heavier than period blades were. So by the end of all of this, I will likely have some decent data, and some rather nifty swords to play with.

-Mb

(edit) I talked with the shop in India again. He is starting on an unengraved handle with a 4 inch grip. This will be the test model to see how it fits before I put in a larger order. If this one works, I am probably going to get a half dozen of them, as you never know when another opportunity to get them will come up. I will definitely be getting at least one with the full engraving. And several of the different styles. I'll post how it looks when it gets here.

 

[kukulza28]

For the hilts remember they were meant to be snug, it's forcing you to keep your wrist from cocking too much and cutting with your arm/body, and not from wrist motion... resulting is a more powerful slicing action. Of course some were just very small, and there were ones made for kids too.

There's actually a few smiths in the Punjab area making the real deal... this guy is one of them: http://nihangsingh.com/

 

[horseclover]

International Military Antiques Inc. has listed a batch pf original 19th century pieces at a fair price,

Original Item: IMA has purchased a small quantity of approximately 20 of these original Indian Tulwar fighting swords dating back perhaps as much as 200 years that were released by the Indian State of Jaipur in the 1970s.

At that time, India believing that antique treasures were all being looted by the west, introduced very stringent exporting regulations, now somewhat relaxed. As a result much material was disguised as modern reproductions and having passed Indian custom inspection was shipped overseas.

These Original Tulwar battle swords fell into this category and as a result some enterprising Indian exporter had all the swords enthusiastically cleaned and each fitted with a new black canvas covered wood scabbard declaring them all as modern replicas.

Now, years later IMA purchased the remaining stock and has these original early 19th century swords, complete with the now nearly 40 year old scabbards, and is able to offer these at an affordable price.

Note: Each of these Tulwar swords was made by hand, so no two are identical. The curve of the blade, the style of the grip, presence of a knuckle guard, width of the blade, blade length, etc are all variable. These are between 125-200 years old and look it despite overly enthusiastic cleaning. Comes with canvas & wood scabbard.

Cheers

GC

 

[The_Monkeyboy]

Yes, I know that the handle is supposed to be tight. But I have large hands. And even on the largest antique ones I have found, I can't get more than 3 fingers around them. I have also been to the site the other poster mentioned. They are very good, but very expensive. And they don't really answer emails. I have found several other shops in that region that also make swords and hilts, and are much more willing to get back to me.

 

[The_Monkeyboy]

So, here I am over a year later, and I have made some progress. The language barrier is a bit of an issue. Sword maker #1 fell through. So did #2-5. #6 is probably going to eventually get around to making a grip for me. But he is slower than hell, and dragging his feet. However, he has decided that screwing me over and running off with the funds is a bad idea, as I have both his photo ID and subtly pointed out to him that there was a police station, with a phone number and website about a block and a half down the street from him. He is a specific sect of Sikh, and I also am now friends with several other people in the religious group he is in on Facebook. Social media and the internet is a wonderful thing for keeping people honest. I think he has figured out what would happen if he burns me. So I will probably end up getting a hilt from him in the next few months. Once he realized that he couldn't back out, he became much better at answering emails and showing progress. Sword maker #7, however, is very, very good at getting things done. He doesn't ship swords to the US, but he does carry larger hilts. And ships reliably. There is still a bit of a language barrier. However, the hilt and scabbard furniture he sent me showed up in 3 days. And instead of being etched iron like I thought it was going to be, it is iron with elaborate silver wire work covering the entire thing. I will post picture of it soon. I am also having him send me some plain, unadorned ones in my size, as there is no way I could use the silver one for a piece that will get used in torture tests. The blades are still on my to-do list, but I am probably going to have the Cold Steel 1796 sabre ground down to match the historical one I have and use that for the cutting tests. All this, just because I am curious.

-Mb

 

[The_Monkeyboy]

All of the silver areas are exactly that. Silver. The top is the hilt, which is made of iron, and hollow, to allow the blade to be mounted with a form of cutler's resin. The formulas they use vary from place to place, but it normally seems to be about 8 parts pine resin to 2 parts of some sort of solid material (river sand, charcoal, brick dust, or whatever their particular recipe calls for). I have also seen adding 1 part beeswax to that from several sources, which is what I am going to go with. Though I can't get any corroboration for this from the sources in India.

The middle and bottom pieces are the hardware for the scabbard. The middle one goes on the top of the scabbard towards the mouth. The other one is obviously the bottom end.

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[crimsonfalcon07]

Nice. Hopefully the project isn't too aggravating.

 

[The_Monkeyboy]

Nice. Hopefully the project isn't too aggravating.

lol. Aggravating isn't exactly the word I would use. Close though. On the other hand, it gives me something to do. And the hilt pictured here is actually very nice. It really fills the hand well, and isn't likely to turn when you use it. Despite being made of smooth metal. The frustration and dead ends were actually worth it. Especially if I end up with a few nice swords out of it. I mean, anybody can order a Cold Steel sword. Or find a decent Katana. How many people end up with a custom-made tulwar, or tega, or saif? I may end up with several very functional swords that are more or less custom-fitted to my hand. This whole process has been educational, if nothing else.

-Mb

 

[Helleri]

Does anybody know where I can find functional tulwar blades? I am doing another research project for a book, and I would like to compare how well tulwars cut compared to European sabres. I can find all kinds of original and reproduction grips for tulwars. But the only blades I can find are either current production Indian damascus blades, which have a poor reputation for edge retention, lack of flexibility, and just about everything else. Or they are on old tulwars of unknown quality and origin. I don't mind using an old one, but I don't want to damage something that is actually valuable. Nor would it be a fair comparison if the old tulwar blade I use is the equivalent of a swap-meet special or tourist trinket. So, does anybody have any ideas? Are there any custom blade makers out there that cost less than a kidney and a testicle for a basic, no-frills kind of blade?

-Mb

You are aware that a lot of Tulwars use British or German blades that are often modified (sometimes to the point of the riccasso becoming part of the new tangs and completely hiding or partially destroying the hallmarks) and shoved with resin into an Indian hilt, right? And we already know that original Indian crucible steel was tougher then European sword steel. It was for that reason that specimens were being sent to England for metallurgical analysis around 1795. There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence from British enlisted fighting alongside Sikh warriors to suggest that they were indeed sharper. Just saying... it's possible that you may end up comparing two British blades unintentionally. And outside of that we already know that original Indian crucible steel was better then euro sword steel of the time.

 

[B.F.U]

All of the silver areas are exactly that. Silver. The top is the hilt, which is made of iron, and hollow, to allow the blade to be mounted with a form of cutler's resin. The formulas they use vary from place to place, but it normally seems to be about 8 parts pine resin to 2 parts of some sort of solid material (river sand, charcoal, brick dust, or whatever their particular recipe calls for). I have also seen adding 1 part beeswax to that from several sources, which is what I am going to go with. Though I can't get any corroboration for this from the sources in India.

The middle and bottom pieces are the hardware for the scabbard. The middle one goes on the top of the scabbard towards the mouth. The other one is obviously the bottom end.

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Can someone explain to me how this sword could possibly be used with such a ridiculously unergonomic seeming handle? I've seen these Indian swords lots of times and always have no idea how one would fit a hand on them, let alone use them in combat without injury.

 

[The_Monkeyboy]

Can someone explain to me how this sword could possibly be used with such a ridiculously unergonomic seeming handle? I've seen these Indian swords lots of times and always have no idea how one would fit a hand on them, let alone use them in combat without injury.

I know that they look hideous and uncomfortable. But they are designed to be used differently than Western hilts. They are made to lock your hand in place. Swordsmanship in that part of the world relies less on finger and wrist movement, and more on using the much larger muscles in the arm and shoulder. There is a much greater reliance on long drawing cuts, and the hilts reflect that. The disk at the bottom helps lock your hand in place, and forces you to maintain a hammer grip. Essential for that kind of sword work. The swell in the middle fills the center of your hand, giving you a secure and comfortable grip, and keeps the hilt from turning in your hand. That means that the edge will stay exactly aligned and in the best position for draw cuts. The quillions fit well over the top of your finger and in between the metacarpals of your thumb and forefinger. Again, locking everything in place, and providing some protection for the hand.

I have really big hands, and as I noted in earlier posts, this presented a serious problem when it came to these hilts. Most of them have between 7.5 to 8.5 cm of space between the disk and the bottom of the quillions. I need 10 cm, or four inches. Once I managed to get the correct size, the biggest problem I had, I was able to take full advantage of the design.

-Mb

 

[B.F.U]

I know that they look hideous and uncomfortable. But they are designed to be used differently than Western hilts. They are made to lock your hand in place. Swordsmanship in that part of the world relies less on finger and wrist movement, and more on using the much larger muscles in the arm and shoulder. There is a much greater reliance on long drawing cuts, and the hilts reflect that. The disk at the bottom helps lock your hand in place, and forces you to maintain a hammer grip. Essential for that kind of sword work. The swell in the middle fills the center of your hand, giving you a secure and comfortable grip, and keeps the hilt from turning in your hand. That means that the edge will stay exactly aligned and in the best position for draw cuts. The quillions fit well over the top of your finger and in between the metacarpals of your thumb and forefinger. Again, locking everything in place, and providing some protection for the hand.

I have really big hands, and as I noted in earlier posts, this presented a serious problem when it came to these hilts. Most of them have between 7.5 to 8.5 cm of space between the disk and the bottom of the quillions. I need 10 cm, or four inches. Once I managed to get the correct size, the biggest problem I had, I was able to take full advantage of the design.

-Mb

That makes sense. It just seems so overdone to me, especially the palm swell. And I guess it's a time/location thing with the space. It seems tiny to me, but I have unusually wide hands at over 4.5". I do understand what you're saying, and it makes sense.

 

[Raymond1000]

I got one from Atlanta Cutlery. It was so authentic that my hands were too big for it.

Windlass Steelcraft is an Indian firm. They've probably figured out occidental handle size by now.

 

[The_Monkeyboy]

The Windlass version is just a 1796 light cavalry sabre blade on a hilt that is basically a Western hilt with window dressing.

 

[The_Monkeyboy]

Update:

I am still waiting on several items to come in or come back in stock with the different suppliers in India. I have some hope that a new, off the shelf one that was for sale on ebay of all places will be large enough for my hand. It looks close, but we will see. The guy that supplied the silver one above is trying to make some plain iron ones for me for significantly less, probably under $60 a piece. In the mean time, I have come up with a version of cutler's resin that seems to hold up to impacts reasonably well. I used it to mound a sword blade into one of the smaller handles I have, and made a decent practice sword for the wife and daughters.

The resin mix I used was made of:

8 ounces of dried (but still slightly soft in spots) piñon pine resin
1.5 ounces of dried spruce gum
1 ounce beeswax
3 ounces finely ground mahogany sawdust

I ended up using a bit more spruce gum than I was planning because some of the piñon resin was still slightly soft before melting. I wanted something that would stiffen the mixture a bit more when it was cool. I also went a bit lighter on the beeswax with this batch, for the same reason. The sawdust should have only been about 2 ounces, but after letting it set once, the mix was still a little too soft. I re-melted it and added another ounce of sawdust, and it set up perfectly. This was my second attempt at this. The first attempt used no spruce gum, and crushed charcoal instead of the sawdust. However, I believe that between the charcoal being so finely ground, and the fact that I heated it up to smoking for quite a while, the final product was too brittle to be useful. Going back and doing more research, I found at least one source that stated that heating it too hot would do that. None of the other sources mentioned that fact. Some of the online videos even show it smoking away merrily while the person was chatting to the camera. Heating it until it is boiling, but not smoking seems to have made a dramatic difference in the final project. Oh, and as a side note, between the heating resin and that particular sawdust, the stuff smells amazing while it is heating up. Like you are burning incense or something.

I will update this thread as other things come in or I make any more progress.

-Mb