Turkish twist

kuraki

Fimbulvetr Knifeworks
Joined
Jun 17, 2016
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I've been prepping some bars to attempt a turkish twist for the first time. I understand the basics from watching Jerry Fisk's videos and Manuel Quiroga's videos, basically:

-weld 4 layered bars and forge down square
-twist 2 cw, 2 ccw
-square up twists again
-stack and weld alternating twists
-cut relief before forming tip so bars stay paralell with edge
-don't forge to shape but use finished billet and do stock removal to get to center pattern

I'm pretty confident in my ability to do all those things, except I still have some problems with twists, specifically after twisting you have essentially a thread form, where the edges of the square bar become the crests of the thread. When doing a simple twist that I intend to be the final pattern, I start with a rather large bar because I have poor luck getting these thread forms to weld to each other, and when I draw out the twisted bar, it sometimes ends up with splits across the twist and jagged edges.

In Manuel's video, after twisting, he squares up the twist in square dies, which I think would help that problem, so I'm going to make another smaller set just for this, but I'm hoping someone could explain how they get repeatably good results from twisting, since I can't tell why half the time get good results with little lost material in the crests and the other half end up with cold shut splits halfway through my billet.

To date I've been twisting in a vise with a pipe wrench but will be making a manual twisting jig for this, with the intent of upgrading it to run off a motor and gear reducer I have laying around in the future.
 
I have seen at least one post/WIP where the smith rewelded the wedges cut out from the "fish mouth" (after hammering the gap shut) to the outside so you got a nice, straight bar for an even press.
 
maybe email Manuel directly and query him?

I suppose I might.

I have seen at least one post/WIP where the smith rewelded the wedges cut out from the "fish mouth" (after hammering the gap shut) to the outside so you got a nice, straight bar for an even press.

That seems to be what he was essentially doing with the square dies after twisting, though when he welded the 4 twists together there was still some fish mouth, they weren't perfect but they were solid, you could see the gap closed at the root of the mouth.
 
This is a very difficult pattern to do. It’s very important to forge bars evenly from end to end and from bar to bar. Break the corners at a 45* to help with the threads not closing on themselves while twisting.

Flatten twisted rods and grind clean before rewelding.

Keep track or count the number of twists to keep bars even. The finished blade should have at least one full twist per inch after drawing out the bar of damascus.

Keep the layer count down so the finished bar isn’t too fine.

Hoss
 
Short heavy bars twist better than long skinny ones.

The driving end twists more than the clamped end.

The middle stays hotter than the ends.

Localized heating and cooling are required to get even twisting.

Hoss
 
First, I want to state I don't do a lot of twisted bars. But I have a question. Why use a vise when you have a press which only takes seconds to close up and can be used for a vise? Plus, if you have been using it, the dies are hot and don't suck the heat out of the billet quite as fast as a vise. Just close the press and release the lever. If you want to, turn off the power, it will still stay closed.

Jim
 
Mostly I don't care to twist horizontally. But it'll be easier all around with a jig.
 
It's difacult. I have been working on one as a test and fatter bars are easier to twist and keep even then skinny bars. This is my test.
Photo%20Dec%2027%2C%203%2016%2056%20PM.jpg


The edge is straight lamination turned facing the edge.
Photo%20Dec%2027%2C%203%2017%2014%20PM.jpg
 
It's difacult. I have been working on one as a test and fatter bars are easier to twist and keep even then skinny bars. This is my test.
Photo%20Dec%2027%2C%203%2016%2056%20PM.jpg


The edge is straight lamination turned facing the edge.
Photo%20Dec%2027%2C%203%2017%2014%20PM.jpg

Looks like those old European swords, good job.

Hoss
 
What would be a low layer sound from a crushed W bar? How many layers in the stack before the crush and how many stacks after that?
 
Here's six bars of twisted w's, IIRC it was 39 layers before crush, 16 layers of w's.
14718816_1157422717667136_4625432022735203832_n.jpg


This is 26 layers before crush, and 12 layers of w's IIRC, 6 bars again:
17098648_1294778603931546_4108265802599688212_n.jpg


Another similar blade, same layup, slightly different results:
16298900_1254794681263272_5436995836296058790_n.jpg


Coarser yet, this is 13 layers before crush, then 9 layers w's... two bars over a CruV edge.
21272082_1475453985864006_8164151954356355360_n.jpg
 
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