Two-bladed self defense

J

JBoS6

Joined
Mar 19, 2001
Messages
157
I'm wondering about training in knife-fighting with *two* blades. I certainly understand the validity of one blade, leaving one hand free to grapple, grab, defend. However, I believe that a properly deployed blade can be used for trapping, etc. ... and give the opponent TWO rather nasty things to think about (not to mention my steel-toed boots. :D )

I'm sure that some/many will have VEHEMENT opposition to two-bladed self-defense. To those people, please know that I see and understand your position, and am not discounting it. However, this thread is looking for those who may have some knowledge of two-bladed self-defense, and where (books/videos) I might be able to find information on that.

Thanks very much in advance for your assistance. I greatly anticipate the responses.
 
This is one of the reasons I like to carry a large, shiny blade folder and a smaller, BT folder. Your opposition will keep his eyes on what he thinks is the main threat. While he's focusing on your big shiny blade, wave out your CQC7bt :eek: and slice him something good. At night, they won't see it coming.
 
With the blades I have in mind (a pair of Uji Fighters from Newt Livesay), it would be a blade in each hand, probably both reverse grip ... both have black blades, and in reverse grip, would serve as a NASTY surprise.

(I have an inquiry in to Normark about a two-blade IWB sheath. This could be a GREAT defensive rig. Will keep you posted!)
 
Ohhhh, you're using fixed blades.

Ok, get some horizontal draw kydex made. You'll want to wear this one small of back. Basically two sheaths humping each other.
 
I'm actually thinking of having the blades between horizontal & vertical ... sort of in an "X" configuration, so each hand can draw a blade. My concern with horizontal/cross-draw is that it is not well concealable, if it's on the outside of my pants, strapped to my belt.

Any other thoughts, soldier? Happy to listen to any suggestions!
 
The problem with X draw is you might cut yourslef on the draw. When you draw in practice, sure things go smooth (cuz you want them to go smooth) but whe the sh!t hits the fan, you're gonna pull that thing like crazy and you don't know how it'll turn out. With a sheath humping sheath config, your pulling both blades in complete opposite from each other. IMHO, that's the safest and most concealable way to go.

Hope it helps.
 
BTW, you want to carry them edge down. That way, when drawn in reverse grip, you can hold the blades along yourwrist and arm so when the opposition attempts a weapon grab - they get sliced.
 
I was recently thinking about this subject, and I came up with the idea of a balisong BM 42 in the right hand and a Livesay Woo knife in the left, reverse grip, maybe from a SOB sheath. The bali gives kuboton effect if you don't want to use a blade (be wary, though, drawing a closed knife--is still drawing a knife!!) and if you do an opening, even a simple one, they may get tunnel vision and not even see the black bladed Livesay being drawn.
Bear in mind, though, that I don't usually carry for defense, and this is all theory. I welcome your thoughts.
 
Of course, it might be well to think of how prosecutors, or juries, would view using two knives....
 
Ah, there's the rub. Prosecutors & juries. See, were it really a "jury of my peers", I wouldn't worry, because a bunch of forumites would be sitting in judgement. Sadly, I live in Communist ... sorry, CommonWEALTH of Massachusetts. I don't trust the JUDGES as far as I can throw them, much less juries.

As it is, I carry two blades on me at all times. One is my Gerber Covert (front-right or -left), and the other is a small CRKT Mirage clipped to my wallet pocket. (Have always liked the idea that if someone tells me to hand over my wallet, I can make the motion of going for it, but bring out a blade to defend, instead.) If I needed to, I could deploy one or both in short order. However, I used to carry a Camillus single-edge boot knife at the small of my back (IWB), and miss it. This two-bladed idea is sort of a step up from there (both in concept & in quality of blades.)

Combining those two issues (juries & deploying two blades), two blades would only be used as an escalation in force from one blade. Meaning, my level of response would depend on the level of threat (as it should be, right, folks?). The fact of *having* the two blades would not necessarily equate to the *drawing* of two blades, much as the existence of a defensive situation would not necessarily equate to the drawing of *one* blade ... it all depends on the level of threat.

That's just my thought on it, and I would certainly appreciate any replies or thoughts on mine.
 
I often practice double knife. My left hand knife used for hooking/trapping/slashing is a Spyderco Civilian. My right hand knife alternates between a Spyderco Military, Cold Steel Vaquero Grande, or a fixed blade depending upon what I may feel is appropriate at the time.

Worrying about what some lawyer or judge may think is IMHO a waste of energy. I've heard this same arguement used by others to question why you would want to carry a knife for self defence anyway. It's a meaningless arguement because you can attach any assumptions you want to prove any point you want. I can't control what others think. If they have a prejudicial attitude towards knives, their use as legitimate tools of self defense or the right of an individual to protect himself, then it doesn't matter what you're packing or how many, you are the enemy. Besides that, the State has issued me a concealed weapons permit. In Oregon, this permit is only good for handguns. State law does not require a permit for the concealed carry of any other type of weapon, although there are several restrictions regarding the types, styles and sizes of weapons that can be carried concealed. I carry a .40 caliber Glock, why should anyone be upset about my Civilian other than their own prejudice and bigotry?

What is important IMHO is the legality of your tools, how you're carrying them, and your actions and attitudes in any given situation. The concealed weapons laws here in Oregon are written in such a way that a Police Officer can arrest you for the keys in your pocket. If you use your tools, you best be able to show righteous cause because you could very well have to defend your actions.
 
Originally posted by Bikewer
Of course, it might be well to think of how prosecutors, or juries, would view using two knives....
Click to expand...

Bikewer, I don't think it matters. If you can justify using lethal force, how lethal that force is is irrelevant. In fact in most jurisdictions if you can justify using lethal force and you purposefully wound, you can be charged with a crime. Therefore using two knives, when justified, is no worse than using one. Just like using a .22 in self defense is no better than using a .50

Pierre
 
JBoS6:

SEAsian martial arts usually cover the use of multiple blades. These are arts such as Kali, Escrima, and Silat.

I've just started Pekiti Tirsia Kali and we do a lot of multi-blade work. Primarily long and short, but the curriculum includes two short blades (espada y daga - long and short, doble daga - two short blades).

It ain't easy, but it can be done to good effect.

Pierre
 
Hey man I think a benchmade balsiong model 31 should definitively be on your arsenal. It has a 3 inch blade and a pocket clip on the side. Besides it has titanium handles whoch make it very lightweighted and with this you can make very fast openings and closings.
You can check it out at: http://www.onestopknifeshop.com/store/benchmade-butterfly-knives.html

And maybe with this you'll draw a different attention cause balisongs are very impressives if you know how to fan them, so what you would do is to draw their attention to the smaller one (because it is so impressive) while attacking them with the bigger one.
Sounds Cool HuH?? ;)
Check it out
 
Hey man
For the harness I was thinking, in the balisong forum, one of the moderators "Clay" has developed a new harness system that allowes users to carry up to 8 balisongs in a comfortable way, without revealing them, originally this was made only for two. Maybe this could serve your purposes.

Read it from the url: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179304

This is the review:
"Clay's newest harness system (a long review)

I have the honor to be one of the folks Clay sent one of his new ‘suspender’ harness rigs for testing. This is the one that he talked some about on earlier posts, where he mentioned carrying up to 6 balis comfortably all day! Well – I don’t carry six, in fact since I received the harness system I have only been carrying one (tho it is set up for two), but I believe him after playing with this setup for a few weeks!
Ok – I can’t talk specifically about how the sheaths adjust on this harness….that part is to be kept quiet until Clay finishes work on the patent process, but he tells me that I can talk about everything else. So here goes!

First – you can use this system as real suspenders! It’s not just for carrying knives. It is a “Y” system – two straps that hook on to your waistband in the front of you, they run over your shoulders to a central point (in this case a metal ring) near the center of your back; then a single strap runs down to your waistband in the back.

The sheath(s) are attached to the vertical straps in front (my rig has two. Clay tells me that these front straps will handle two more, and then you can get a double inverted “V” sheath for the back strap as well…..for a total of 6). There are elastic tensioning straps that run from the central ring under the arm and attach to the sheath. These prevent the sheath from flapping around, and when snugged up securely they keep the sheath (and knife) nicely tucked against the body.

The sheaths are incredible! The way Clay has them rigged on this harness allows them (and I can’t be specific here) to be adjusted to any height on the strap you desire within seconds! Further, with a minimum of fuss (maybe 5 minutes) you can reposition the sheaths to carry the knife angled down and inwards (for cross draw..latch end angled towards belly), down and outwards(for same side draw….latch end angled towards kidney), up and inwards(for same side draw with latch opening or cross draw), up and outwards(for same side draw with punyo strike before opening). Of course, all of these options can be further changed by positioning the sheaths anywhere from your shoulder to your waist. If all this isn’t enough – these sheaths can be removed from the harness completely and fastened to a tech lock device and used as a standard belt carry system in a slightly angled (forward or reverse) or vertical mode!

Now, I like harness systems for carrying knives of all sizes and shapes. I also work in an office full of sheeple. I also like to wear vests – this time of year the fleece kind. The biggest problem I’ve had with other harness systems has been that “snugging” strap showing thru the arm hole of the vest (which typically have a large arm hole). This system of Clay’s keeps the knife securely snugged against your body, and the harness itself is COMPLETELY invisible! I have been wearing mine all day today – and the only person that noticed did so after I took off my vest! I am carrying my BM47A, and a fleece vest over the harness, and even when I reach for my pen in the breast pocket of my shirt no one can see the knife. I have been in two meetings today – no notice at all.

Comfort. This is a BIG problem with many harnesses. Let’s face it – you ARE going to notice it when you wear any kind of harness system. Well – this one is the best I’ve ever felt – and I’ve worn all kinds of shoulder rigs for both knives and guns. When I first got this from Clay I wore it every day for a week, and that included sleeping in it (must give credit for the sleep test idea to Sniperboy). Other than the pressure of the straps that is always there, I didn’t notice it. Since many of us practice one form of martial art or another I went thru a series of falls and rolls to see how it would work. Initially the central ring dinged me in the back, but once (on the advice of Clay) I had adjusted the straps so that the ring rested in the hollow of the back just under my shoulder blades – no problems.

So – I don’t know when Clay is going to be making this available to the general bali public, but whenever that is I highly recommend it for those “special” occassions when you need to carry your bali(s), but don’t have a belt (you know….formal wear….this way you won’t have to dig inside the cummerbund of your tuxedo to get the knife out at your next State dinner!).

I know I’ve left a lot out – perhaps other “testers” can pitch in. But this is getting a tad long.

Thanks Clay! I’ll be having you make some sheaths for this rig for fixed blades one day too!

Bob"

Hope this serves your purpose.


:cool:
 
Unfortunately, logic is only one part of criminal defense strategies.
I know that Herr Ayoob has had a lot to say on the subject; and you are liable to be confronted with prosecutors who will portray you as a "violence-prone" individual, walking around "armed to the teeth, and looking for trouble".
You might be painted as a paranoid type, itching for the chance to use your purpose-built fighting knives.... you get the picture.

We know that you can shoot somebody "too much"; look at the furor over the Diallo incident. We had a local incident where a shopkeeper, who's daughter had been killed in an armed robbery, shot a robber. The thug fled, pursued by the shopkeeper, who finished the job on the parking lot. The shopkeeper was indicted for using excessive force. Thankfully, the case didn't go to trial...

Everyone has to make their own decisions, we're all familiar with the "rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" idea. Still, when planning defensive tactics, I don't think it's a bad idea to consider the legal consequences. Hell, the BG's do!
 
Double knife goes hand in hand with double sword training / skills.

Recommend you query regarding Mike Echanis' first combatives knife book (Black Cover) which covers in a very comprehensive, no nonsense way the art and worth of learning how to fight effectively with two knives.

The Filipino arts can certainly provide instruction in this skill, as well. Double stick fighting, for example, is same thought process as double knife. The transition is centered in the unique differences in the weapons being trained.

You can utilize two of the same knives, or mix as you are capable of handling and for specific and practical reasons.

Traditionally double knife sees one knife held in the forward grip, the second held in a reverse grip. This allows for the accomplished fighter to flow through the distance changes that occur swiftly during a fight. Forward grip for long range, reverse grip for when the all-important "gap" is bridged and your strikes must be powerful and delivered in extremely tight quarters in a swift manner.

Double knife also includes the ability to change grips with either knife instantly. This way you can flow with the battle, use different strikes and tactics, change your strategy, and confuse / divert your opponent's attention by such meaningful grip changes.

Carry-wise the most practical and legal where you primarily live and work is what you must explore and determine. Sexy in knife combatives is stupid. Complicated systems or sheathes are stupid. The draw must be swift, sure, and uncomplicated. You will likewise want to be able to return the knife, or knives, to their sheathes as quickly and easily as possible.

Contrary to one posting on this subject the laws in Oregon do not allow for a police officer to arrest you for having your keys in your pocket.

Oregon law and the State Constitution is very clear in these areas anymore. If such an arrest were to be made as described by the poster, the case would most likely be tossed at the DA's level and the officer required to do some homework by his or her department.

The only group of folks who are truly affected by Oregon knife laws are convicted felons. They can run into a restricted weapon charge under Oregon Statute. This, again, will be the DA's call as to how far such a charge is pursued.

Oregon recently saw further clarification in favor of the knife carrying citizen which likewise clarified for law enforcement the issue of blade carry and possession, to include concealed carry when it comes to knives.

Again, do your own homework on such matters. Call the local police; contact a deputy DA, head for the law library and look the applicable laws up; and then have clarified, if necessary. Worth the time, saves you headache and $$, and you will know for sure rather than relying upon some unknown "voice" out in cyberspace.

Double knife is first and foremost an exciting way to train and develop excellent coordination, balance, and discipline. It's fun, few actually train in this manner, and it opens up a whole new world of defensive fighting thought processes (After all, we most often fight with two hands, two elbows, two fists, two legs, two knees, two feet, and two eyes / ears! All controlled and directed by only ONE brain!)

Explore and enjoy:D
 
Sierra

I appreciate your update on the Oregon laws. Just like I did a couple years ago, I'll do again. At that time, I spent several hours down at the law library going through every reference I could find for weapons, force continuum, concealed carry, etc, I could think of. I spent several dollars, one dime at a time, for copying, then several more hours reviewing the statutes. I then spoke with one State Trooper, three County Deputies and two Eugene Police Officers with statutes in hand. Surprise surprise, not one of them had any real idea of what the statutes said at that time. One of the Deputies did have an abbreviated version of the statutes on him.

But almost every one of them, when asked about the clause at the end of the section dealing with concealed carry that said "... or any other similar object.", said they wouldn't hesitate to use that as justification for removing someone from the streets if they felt so inclined, even if it involved a persons keys. When I asked them how they justified that they simply replied to the affect that what the judge or DA did later was of little consequence. The important thing was to get someone off the street at that moment.

So it would be well to be a little cautious about telling someone to not let the police arrest you. You can certainly protest your arrest, and quote law as you know it. But police aren't required to know the law, they're not lawyers. I'd be real careful about resisting arrest even if you believe it to be a bogus charge.
 
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