Two Questions

G

Grob

Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
462
What with election season reving up south of the border and me being a poli sci student and all I have a couple of questions for you folks. Any help you can give would be greatly apreciated.

Question the first: This one mainly pertains to thems of you in the US of A as in canada the system doesnt really leave you any choice. Do you vote based on the party or based on the individual?
One of the things I really admire about the american political system is the individual initiative of the Reps and Senators, up here there is such a strong party whip that MPs have no choice but to vote the pary line most of the time.

Question the Second (and totaly unrelated): I have been studying international relations for a while now and have been chalenged to come up with an example that disproves Democratic Peace Theory. So what I want to know is can anyone think of an example of when two reasonably democratic nations have gone to war with one another?
My requirments for reasonably democratic are near universal adult franchise, and relativly free and fair elections. (The Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea does not count. But say Peru despite some electoral funny buisness does)

Thank you for your help in advance.

Grob
AKA Gordon the Walrus
 
1. Either as it suits your sensibilities.
2. Sure...the US and France.

What do you mean we're not at war with them?
Since when?
 
Grob said:
Question the first: This one mainly pertains to thems of you in the US of A as in canada the system doesnt really leave you any choice. Do you vote based on the party or based on the individual?
One of the things I really admire about the american political system is the individual initiative of the Reps and Senators, up here there is such a strong party whip that MPs have no choice but to vote the pary line most of the time.

Question the Second (and totaly unrelated): I So what I want to know is can anyone think of an example of when two reasonably democratic nations have gone to war with one another?
My requirments for reasonably democratic are near universal adult franchise, and relativly free and fair elections. (The Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea does not count. But say Peru despite some electoral funny buisness does)
Grob
AKA Gordon the Walrus
Click to expand...
(1) I for one, really try to get to know about both candidates and their records of past action (even if military rather than political). Those who think more like I do are more apt to well represent me. For instance, the sister of the current Governor of Indiana was the U.S. Attorney who prosecuted many of my drug cases. He's doing a super job, just like her. She is now a Deputy Attorney General of the U.S. (Criminal Division).

(2) I don't know of any truely democratic countries who have fought each other. Lots of countries may have the word "democratic" in their name, but fall short of actually pulling off the ORDERLY transfer of power from one party to another that characterizes true democratic government. Put Socialists in power, throw in a couple of coups, and true democracy is shredded.
 
Interesting that you ask. I'm also a poly sci. major here in the US, and I'm currently in a class entitled "political parties."

1) Elections in the United States are extremely candidate-centered. Party is a concern, but it really takes a major second seat on election day. This is supported by a LOT of data. Believe me, I've read enough of it this semester to last a lifetime. This is especially true if you consider elections from an historical perspective. For instance, in the mid-to-late 1800's, party voting was much more important. The Jacksonian Democrats basically ran the show. Now, party indeed plays a very important part in the elections, but that role is more money- and organization-related. The parties tend to support the candidates' bids for office, not the other way around.

2). Well, Palestine and Lebanon come to mind. As far as I know, these were the first two really true examples (this last year). Unless I'm mistaken, this is the first example of real democracies attacking each other. If I'm wrong, and I may well be, please correct me. Overall, though, I think this pretty well proves that theory bogus. I mean, it lasted a lot longer than I thought it would have and democracy on both sides probably makes war considerably less likely, but I think peoples' interests will always conflict enough to make them go to war, universal franchise or no.

Chris
 
2). Well, Palestine and Lebanon come to mind. As far as I know, these were the first two really true examples (this last year). Unless I'm mistaken, this is the first example of real democracies attacking each other. If I'm wrong, and I may well be, please correct me.
Click to expand...

There is no nation, let alone democracy, called "Palestine", and Lebanon didn't fight a war with anyone last year.
 
I think I have this right.

In 1914, Germany was a constitutional monarchy with universal sufferage and the Kaiser as the head of state (not the head of government). The German electorate selected the parliament that voted to go to war. UK and Italy ditto. France was a republic and democracy whose Chamber of Deputies voted to go to war. Canada, Australia, NZ, and South Africa were dominions with democratic governments that voted to go to war.

After the war started, the elected representatives acted pretty much like rubber stamps, but, then, that was true in the U.S. as well --- after Congress voted to go to war against Germany.

That would be nine democracies that voted to go to war.

Anyone know about Serbia? Not sure Serbia would count since the war came to Serbia unbidden.

Austria-Hungary?

Russia and Turkey were mixed bags - democratic in form but with authoritarian governments.
 
Here are a few examples of Democracies (governments elected by the people) who were overthrown because of non-compliance with western ideals:

Iran - 1953
Guatamala - 1954
Ecuador - 1963
Greece - 1967
El Salvador - 1972
Chile - 1973

there are many more but I don't have time to look them up.
 
1. I vote independantly, though lately, mostly Republican. I think you are mistaken about the members of congress acting independantly anymore. Nancy Pelosi has nipped that in the bud. We're headed your way as we liberalize.

2. Yes. Examples above. I especially like Bill Marsh's example of the Mexican invasion. Their government has supplied them with maps in the past, so there is certainly official collusion with their plan to take over based on population.
 
I have to disagree with WWI example, as unless I'm mistaken none of those countries alowed women to vote(I'm not sure of the year for the US, but the commonwealth did not). There have definatly been cases of democracies arming and training rebels, freedomfighters, terroristswhatever you want to call them. As in Chile helping Pinochet overthrow the social democrat Allende, or the Iran Contra scandal in Nicaragua but both of those where illeagle and were stopped by public outcry. Interesting side not, it looks like Ortega the sandanista leader who was overthrown by the contras is going to be elected again.
 
I can only answer for the first question, and even at that, I'm really not that qualified. Personally, I base my vote on the person. For example, here in Indiana we have a republican up for re-election in the House. His democratic opponent is running a successful campaign and looks to probably win the seat based on polls taken. My wife, literally a card carrying republican, is voting for him. However, “Democrat” has a world of difference in meaning when you talk about this guy and P-lo out there in California. This guy is a sheriff, pro-gun, pro-border security, and anti-abortion. The incumbent just hasn’t done a good job countering anything, and, IMHO, has the worst mud-slinging ads.

Personally, I’m sick to death of politics. My first election cycle to participate in was the 2000 presidential elections. It seems to have only gotten nastier and sickening since then. Yeah, I get it. All republicans are fat-cat big business kick-backers while EVERY dem spends his off time at the local soup kitchen feeding the homeless. Every dem wants to redistribute 80% of my paycheck while every rep will insure me that when I wake up in the morning I won’t be able to slide my pants on due to all the money stuffed in the pockets.:rolleyes:

As an heir to a small business, my family supports the republican party as the lesser of two evils based on what we feel is the representation to keep our business thriving. I agree with them on that. However, I also understand that brussle sprouts are good for me…but that doesn’t make them taste any better.

Jake
 
Democracy and capitalism together make war more unlikely, but when there isn't enough, there will alway be strife.

munk
 
Bill Marsh said:
What about the Mexican Invasion?:grumpy:
Click to expand...

Well, we moved troops across the border that had been claimed by the Republic of Texas and State of Texas into Mexico. They tried to toss us out, contrary to Manifest Destiny, and we took half the country. That invasion? [:D ]

If so, Mexico was democratic at the time only in form.
 
Grob said:
I have to disagree with WWI example, as unless I'm mistaken none of those countries alowed women to vote(I'm not sure of the year for the US, but the commonwealth did not).
Click to expand...
You are more right than wrong on your facts.

I guess it comes down to what constitutes a democracy. If it's everyone having a right to vote is required, the U.S. is still not a democracy because in most states felons cannot vote (OK with me.) and in Ohio you must present some "acceptable" form of ID (also OK with me).

Women's suffrage existed only in NZ and Oz (but "whites" only in Oz) when WW I began.

It came to:

Canada (later in Quebec for provincial and local elections), UK, and Germany - 1918 (some argue for 1917)

U.S. - 1920 (but subject to "literacy" tests in most southern states until
the 1960's

France - 1944 (Liberte, Equality ...... Oh, never mind.)

South Africa - 1984
 
Yep, poor Brad came to a messy end didn't he?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top