Type of steel in my Old Timer 165?

N

norad45

Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
43
First off, forgive my ignorance. I've paid a lot more attention to guns in my life than knives, but since I found this forum that will be changing.
My hunting knife since about 1973 has been an Old Timer 165. The blade is not marked (the box is long gone) and I have always assumed it was stainless steel. I recently got an identical looking replacement new in the box off of ebay. The box is marked "Schrade Walden 165 OT" and the blade is marked "Shrade USA 165".
Should I assume this is 440A stainless? It is not marked "Schrade+", just "Schrade". I have been happy with the Old Timer over the years; I love the shape and the size is perfect for hunting/survival.
Is the steel or heat treatment in this knife comparable to modern knives or should I look for a replacement?
Regards, Vince

Edit: sorry, I should have mentioned these are fixed blade knives.
 
Not all of the newer OTs (particularly slipjoints) seem to necessarily be 100% carbon steel. :(

There was a "rumor" that 420hc was more easy/cheaper to fine blank from rolls than working carbon steel. Some folks have even seen 2 blades of a stockman take a patina, and one remain unchanged.

Not being argumentative with a knowledgeable guy like Fred, just a rumor I heard.

Bill
 
I have a 165 and mine is carbon steel. I thought that they all were but I am not sure about that. I would think that if you have been using it since 1973"and it is in fact carbon steel" you would notice some discoloration by now. In my opinion it is a good outdoors/hunting knife. That's what it was made for.
 
Grateful, that's why I'm confused. The first model I had (with the unmarked blade) doesn't have any staining but I always took pretty good care of it (cleaning and oiling it.) Does your 165 have any markings on the blade?
Are blades marked "Schrade" carbon and blades marked "Schrade+" stainless? Also, aside from discoloration, how does one tell carbon from stainless? Is there a quick and simple way?
Thanks, Vince
 
Schrade uses 1095 carbon steel in their OT knives and 440A and probably more recently, 420HC in their Schrade+ knives.
Scott
 
My 165 is marked SCHRADE U.S.A and then below that 165. My experiance with Schrade knives has been that their stainless blades are marked SCHRADE+ but with a company making as many knives as Schrade any thing is possible. I too have heard of OT's with one stainless blade and the others carbon. I have also seen 165's with Staglon "UH" type handles, don't know if they were stainless or not as I did not see them up close.
If you really want to know if it is stainless or not stick it in to a potato over night and if it is carbon steel the part of the blade that is in the potato will turn black. The down side to this is that it will take some work to make it shine again if it does turn. Personaly I encourage patina "that's what it's called when they turn black" as it helps protect the blade and I think it looks cool. One other thing if you decide to try the potato trick you will need to clean any oil of the blade that might prevent it from turning. Rubbing alchoul works well for this.
 
I´d guess it to be 1095 carbon, I believe in those days the stainless blades were 440A marked "Schrade Stainless" and the carbon, including OT fixed blades were 1095.

If it is 1095 and has been used it would likely be at least a bit darkened, or it would easily take a patina as Grateful mentions, potato, lemon, mustard, work fine for that, coke was recently mentioned in another thread, which I tried with good results, I like a patina too.

Some people can distinguish carbon from stainless by smell.

I have a Schrade OT slipjoint that is stainless although not marked so, but it is recent (bought in late 2003).

Luis
 
Schrade has been using stainless steel off and on in there Uncle Henry knives. I have a 340T that I purchased a few months ago that is stainless but not marked Schrade+. My father has on older 3 blade stockman style Uncle Henry that is stainless and marked with the Schrade+ stamp.

Tom
 
This is from the Schrade Handbook at -
http://www.rangercamping.com/Knives_Handbook/Knives_Handbook_Schrade.htm#Blade_Theory
QUOTE:
Over the years we have settled on two steels that we feel give the best all around results in our knives. One is a high carbon steel and the other is a stainless steel.

We use AISI 1095 high carbon steel in our Old Timer knives (except where noted). This is a very traditional cutlery steel which has a carbon content of between 0.95 % and 1.05 % .1095 steel is famous for both its edge hold ability and resharpening ease. One of the characteristics of this steel is that it will darken or discolor with use, especially if used on meats or fruits. Care must also be taken with a carbon steel knife in order to prevent rust. The blades should be kept dry and lightly oiled occasionally.

On our Uncle Henry line and Heritage line we use AISI 440A stainless steel. Knives with this steel will have a Schrade+ in their tang stamp. 440A gets its stainless properties from the inclusion of 17% chrome with 0.7% carbon in the steel. We have found that 440A is equally as good a cutlery steel as 1095, as well as having the added benefit of a high degree of stain and rust resistance.
UNQUOTE

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
 
Thanks for all the replies. I may try the potato test just to make sure but until then I'll just assume it's carbon.
Regards, Vince
 
Unknown VT,
That site is a little bit dated, unfortunately.
Schrade has been using 420hc for Schrade+ for awhile, according to some former employees and others who were close to the company. They did use 440A for a long time as Schrade+ or Schrade Stainless, but monetary concerns (cheaper/faster) led to the move to 420hc. I think if it gets a good heat treatment, it's mighty hard to tell the two apart. JMO.
As several have said, in the past if it was unmarked it was usually carbon steel. As Don Luis said, many can smell a difference between carbon and a stainless blade, but the patina is the real giveaway. It only takes a few minutes in something acidic and the patina will start on carbon steel.

As for norad45's original question.....It might depend on how "New" the knife was. I didn't find it listed in the current product lineup (just before they shut down) so it might be "New" old stock. I would also guess carbon steel for a 165OT.

At least we are talikg about Schrades, and we aren't even in the Schrade forum. :)

Bill
 
Some of the older UH blades are also high carbon, so the dated info was also a generalization. IIRC, the UH153 can still be had in high carbon.

Is 440A really "as good a cutlery steel as 1095"? I seriously doubt the veracity of that statement in the link provided by UnknownVT.
 
Mustard has been used to give a "damascus look", I tried it once and it came out fine, I applied the mustard with a thin stiff brush, just a thin irregularly applied layer, like in small blotches, the parts of the blade that were less covered came out darker (probably because they got more oxygen from the air).

I find it hard to get an even patina, for that it seems to me that the blade has to be very clean and evenly polished and you have to have something that is applied even, like puting the whole blade in lemon juice or whatever.

My favorite is when it takes on blues and purples, for this timing is important, the blade will start taking colors and if you leave it much longer it may turn to a dull gray, coke or better yet a clear soft drink has been great for this, I´ve used a test tube or a tall champagne glass so I can see how the patina is coming on, somewhere between 30 minutes to an hour has worked for me, it varies with type of steel and probably also with temperature.

Luis
 
My Old Timer Bearhear Trapper arrived and I was a bit concerned when the box read Schrade+ Stainless Steel. The blade however was not marked Schade+ so I used the vinagar test and in ~10 min a nice patina developed -- sure 'nuff, it's high carbon/1095 :) Brand new and it looks a few years old. Now to put some gun oil on the blades and joints. Wouldn't want it to rust ;)
 
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