Type of sword fighting?

Daniel Moore

Daniel Moore

Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Messages
2,790
I was wondering what type of sword fighting would incorporate a meter-long or so double-edged sword with a fighting style that is double handed, but using an actual sword (whereas kendo uses sticks)? Is kendo for use with swords even if it is trained with sticks?
 
There are many styles that used a two handed double edged sword. Are you asking what country/era it would be from? Kendo is Japan's equivalent to fencing. Just like western fencing (what you see in the olympics and movies), you could put a real weapon in the hand of any fencer and they would instantly turn into a skilled swordsman. It teaches a very limited number of slicing and thrusting motions that would be used with a real katana. Shin kendo is what teaches you all aspects of using a katana. Kendo is merely a sport.
 
I guess what I really need is some words :D I want to give swords a chance but first I need to find a style to focus on. I'm not really much enamoured of the one-handed fencing deal, I'd prefer a two-handed style but I don't know the names of any of these styles. The double-edged part isn't a big deal, either. So if you could just list some styles for me to look into I'd appreciate it.

Thanks
 
http://www.sca.org/ is probably your best source for practicing various styles of fighting. Kendo and shinkendo both simulate the use of a katana, and a katana is primarily a two handed weapon. The general idea behind a samurai with a katana is one hit one kill.
 
I don't know of any true martial art that has its students go at it regularly with live blades (or even non-edged blades). Are you looking more for reenactment type activities, or are you looking to time-travel to 1400 or so, and get medieval on people? :)

I know western sword arts are coming back into popularity, but as far as I know sparring is done with wooden or metal "wasters." Same for Japanese sword arts. Live blades are used in both for form demonstrations and target cutting. Generally most modern sword arts will have you use a live blade for specific aspects of training, provided you demonstrate a certain level of proficiency.

Katanas are double handed, but single edged (at least in all currently practiced versions of kenjutsu). Western arts I don't know much about, but German and other longsword styles seem to use double-handed techniques with 35"+ double edged swords. Though the most common styles of high-quality Western swords I've seen are double-edged single handed blades.

Also, these styles use practice weapons that replicate the actual characteristics of a live blade. The only thing that changes is the weight (and the draw, of course). For fencing, I'm not sure how well the foil replicates a true thrusting sword, because I've never held a sabre or small sword. Also, there are a lot of rules governing competition fencing which might be a hindrance if you were in fact planning to go to the 15th century and wail on peasants.
 
It'd probably be a good idea to practice with fake swords before you go parry for parry with the real thing. You can find wooden swords of any and all types. But its dangerous even to take a live blade and just swing it around to get the feel. You should mess with any live sword unless you know the propery way to wield it. Even when alone. I've heard too many cases of people cutting themselves due to swinging too hard or losing grip. Also from someone with modern fencing experience, I think I can say you will never find anything else closer to a real sword fight, including kendo. An important part of any kind of sword fighting is anticipation, coordination, and foot work. My fencing experience with a foil actually helped me a good deal when practicing against an opponent with a bokken. As long as you exclude my constant urges to thrust one handed with a katana :) But, to each their own.
 
You might try http://swordforum.com/ for some info. There are currently a large number of real euro longswords offered by makers see http://www.atrimasa.com/, http://www.christianfletcher.com/, http://albion-swords.com/swords-recreated.htm, and http://www.armor.com/. You can finds wooden wasters here http://www.woodenswords.com/.

Sparring is done with wooded wasters or much blunted steel swords. The danger associated with a sharp swords should NOT be underestimated. It takes some skill to push around a 3 foot 2.5-3.5 lb blade. IMHO, sparring with sharps will lead to injury or death.
 
Well not to ruffle to many feathers but...

First as was mentioned before kendo is basically Japan's version of sport fencing, that is it's a game based on historical sword play. It's fun, you learn footwork and a lot of basic cuts and parry's. Western sport fencing is again a sport based on historical sword play mostly on the last real sword systems with smallsword. Again it is a lot of fun but in my opinion at this point bears little resemblance to actual sword fighting at this point due to the use of electronic scoring etc. where the goal has long since become earning the first "point" in ways that a duelist would never use if faced with real live steel. In my opinion a fencer or kendoka would NOT (sorry kaosu04 I know that's going to aggravate you) be a skilled swordsman if live steel were simply placed in their hands.

To your basic question there are many people trying to put together medieval sword systems like it appears you want to learn. The first one that comes to mind is the folks at the ARMA www.thehaca.com (I think). However there are also folks like Bob Charon that are teaching Fiore as well as various and sundry organizations teaching this or that system. As was noted above, www.swordforum.com and www.myarmoury.com are good places to ask questions about such organizations. I don't really know much more about them other then that they exist. I'm only peripherally involved with such things since I'm more interested in the collecting and manufacturing aspects of swords.

The SCA has a mix of folks some very serious about their swordsmanship (these types often also are members of one of the above mentioned organizations) and a other folks who are mostly interested at beating the snot out of each other with rattan sticks. It seems to just depend on which variation of the organzation you run in to.
As was also noted above even such organization do not practice against each other with live steel but rather with boffer (foam padded sticks), with wasters (wooden swords) or in some cases with rebated practice swords.

Good luck with your searching.
 
Triton, you obviously know your subjects and have done research, so I am not aggrevated in the least. Yes, in a competition fencing is merely a game where you score points. You can score a point by running your opponent out of the fencing strip. But often, and especially in practice, it simulates a real sword fight. Meaning, if you took a fencer and put a live blade in his/her hand, that person would use the same moves. When a point is scored, the bout is over and a new one begins, on the speculation that it would have been or ended in a killing blow by the point scorer. Kendo I do not consider as realistic, because strikes with a katana typically killed in one blow. I am certain these power strokes are quite different in practice. Also, by skilled swordsman I dont mean another Miyamoto Musashi. In a time like this I would define a skilled swordsman as equal to the lowest swordsman of ancient times. A squire with minimal training using a blade perhaps. Am I implying that I could strap a rapier to my side and walk around in public confident that I could meet and duel a challenger? I seriously doubt it. You cant duplicate the stress of a real life situation to a practice round. I can also account for this due to the army training I've been through. I imagine it's a lot harder to think and be a hero when the bullets are coming at you instead of down range.
 
kaosu04 said:
Triton, you obviously know your subjects and have done research, so I am not aggrevated in the least. Yes, in a competition fencing is merely a game where you score points. You can score a point by running your opponent out of the fencing strip. But often, and especially in practice, it simulates a real sword fight. Meaning, if you took a fencer and put a live blade in his/her hand, that person would use the same moves. When a point is scored, the bout is over and a new one begins, on the speculation that it would have been or ended in a killing blow by the point scorer. Kendo I do not consider as realistic, because strikes with a katana typically killed in one blow. I am certain these power strokes are quite different in practice. Also, by skilled swordsman I dont mean another Miyamoto Musashi. In a time like this I would define a skilled swordsman as equal to the lowest swordsman of ancient times. A squire with minimal training using a blade perhaps. Am I implying that I could strap a rapier to my side and walk around in public confident that I could meet and duel a challenger? I seriously doubt it. You cant duplicate the stress of a real life situation to a practice round. I can also account for this due to the army training I've been through. I imagine it's a lot harder to think and be a hero when the bullets are coming at you instead of down range.
Click to expand...

Outstanding! I'm glad that I wasn't to offensive that certainly wasn't my intent, especially over some points that were of only secondary relevance to the question asked. :) I.e. is there a two handed sword system etc. etc. So what sort of fencing do you do and how long have you been at it?
 
Just a little less than a year now. Started with foil of course. Tried sabre for about a week and grew attached to epee. Think I will stick with epee, or perhaps go back to foil.
 
Martial Sports like modern fencing, Kendo and the SCA's rapier and Heavy Fighting can teach you a lot- footwork, timing and distance for example. The restrictive rules very rightly imposed in the interest of safety however do reduce the realism factor- and in fact teach things that will get you killed in a 'real' fight. However learning any systematic form of sword-play gives you a 'leg-up' when study a martial sword art provided you can leave the bad habits that they teach behind. I think that checking at Swordforum.com is an excellent bet. They have a dedicated Historical European Swordsmanship (HES) forum that is very helpfull- also a way to locate groups or practice partners in your area. Chivalry Book Shelf offers a large number of books detailing various systems of longsword play- Guy Windsor's book is particularly well-adapted to solo work and I have also found Christian Tobler's books quite usefull.

Good luck in your quest!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top