Types of Ranges...3 or is it 4

[Kali-Kid]

I was lurking through some old topics and I noticed something interesting. When it comes to empty hands I see the ranges defined as kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling. The minute you add a weapon it gets boiled down to largo, medio, and corto. Am I missing something here?

Isn't there really just the three (largo, medio, corto) while kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling are just aspects(tools) of combat/fighting? For instance, I'm squared against an opponent at "kicking range" and he throws a round kick to my ribs which I catch and hold at the foot. I cut kick his support leg and he falls while I still maintain the hold. Did I go from "kicking range" to "grappling range" once I caught the kick? If so, explain the cut kick in countering. Or did I just grapple at long range? Not sure yet?

How about punching an opponent in the face while you have him in the mount position. Is it "punching range" or "grappling range"? Are you really just punching at close (corto) range?

The list can go on but my goal is clarification. I just can't see the military saying something like, "The enemy is at Trident or Minuteman missle range. Uh oh, they're at tank or howitzer range. Crap, they're at rifle or bayonet range." Any comments, questions, wise remarks on the subject?

Again the is posted for clarification and not to hurt or demean anyone. I'm just trying to evolve by questioning what I've seen and heard. Hopefully I can help someone else evolve too.

The Kid


[This message has been edited by Kali-Kid (edited 06-14-2000).]

 

[Myers]

My take on the subject is that largo, medio, and corto apply when you are considering only 1 weapon. Even when doing espada y daga the range is referenced to the longer weapon. When fighting empty-hand you have two different weapons that roughly break largo range out into kicking & punching. What many people fail to realize is that when Bruce Lee came up with the 4 range classification he never intended to imply that there were clean divisions in the ranges. They overlap as you get closer to the opponent. You can kick in punching range, punch & kick in trapping range, etc.
I think there is justification for saying there are only 3 ranges in empty-hand just as with the weapons: kickboxing range, trapboxing range, and groundfighting.

Keith

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"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt

 

[Kali-Kid]

I've gone over the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and Sigung Lee does not list the ranges as kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling. He does list them in the section titled Tools and covers distance(range) in the section called Mobility. I remember hearing that these terms were coined by Guro Inosanto after Sigung Lee had passed.

I'll try to verify this with one of the first generation instructors under Guro Inosanto.

The Kid

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Question Dogma!!!

 

[thekuntawman]

i dont think this talk about "ranges" is important, because distance should be look at with how long your weapon is vs. his weapon, your arm vs. his arm, etc. you have to understand how to counter against differnet kinds of attack, like did he cover ground to get to you? or did he just lean or just reach out to hit hit you. how much time do you have, that kind of thing. from what i see my students who did the "seminar styles" inosanto, presas, they are practicing with a demo speed, so everything they do is working. when you do these things in a real time with a little bit of contact, people realise that most of the things they do not work unless the attacker is very slow.

instead of wasting time with concept things like "range" and "drills" i would like to suggest to take two or three "answer"'s to a kind of attack, then spar a short 30 second round where your opponent have 30 seconds to land a type of hit on you 6 timess then you try to do your counter (the secret is that he can hit you with anything else). this i believe will give you more valuable practice to defense techniques.

for those people who want to do what pilipinos are doing in the philippines, forget ranges. i have heard mention of this kind of ideas, but nobody talks about it druing training after you pass the beginner level.

 

[Kali-Kid]

Isn't it important? Consider the video of one Dog Brother Gathering, where one individual shoots in for a takedown at the start of a fight completely ignoring the stick in his hand. Were it a machete would it have been wise to go for the shoot or deal with it at long range thereby best utilizing the stick and distance? This individual may have been more at ease close up so he took the risk of closing to work where he was most comfortable. The only thing is he has to know when the distance is right to shoot or eat a stick/blade/etc.

What of a grappler vs a boxer? Each has a particular range in where he/she is the most effective in using his/her tools. How do you get the other to play your game and you not the other's. A boxer doesn't want to go to the ground where a boxer's tool are ineffective and the grappler doesn't want to be in a range to get knocked out. So how do you play the ranges to your benefit?

JKD practitioners use what's called a "fighting measure" to set up an opponent for their intercepts. The premise is to use range in setting up and creating time for a counter. Wouldn't it be wrong for them to neglect this variable in training?

A Largo Mano player wouldn't want to ply his trade in an elevator nor a Serrada player ply his in a open field.

The Kid

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Question Dogma!!!

[This message has been edited by Kali-Kid (edited 06-21-2000).]

 

[Smoke]

Maurice, good to have you back.

Kid, knowing the ranges is important. It's just when you make one range more important or obsess about all of them it can get bad. Kind of like the numbering system, you can use it as a reference/vehicle for moves or you can hype it up and "love" it.

 

[Demi Barbito]

Range is extremely important in training and in application.You simply need to know how to operate in any range and then have a feel for blending them because they will automatically overlap and ebb and flow. Here is an oversimplified example of ranges in Kali weapons applications:

o Projectile Range
o Reverb Range
o Largo Mano Range
o Sumbrada Range
o Punyo Range
o Hubud Range
o Dumog Range

In general empty hands you have:

o Kicking Range
o Punching Range
o Trapping Range
o Grappling Range

Alot of times it not a mantter of what you can or can't do in each range it's simply a matter of "what works best at this range". There is a lot more to the whole thing though...



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Demi Barbito
Full Instructor
JKD Concepts/Kali/BJJ
PFS of SLO
www.thegrid.net/pfs

 

[thekuntawman]

i disagree. this talk about range is unnecesary because if you understand distance and timing, that is all you need when it come to "range".

i believe many the difference between fighters and "martial artist" is that the martial artist is to much concern with theory. then, they spent so much time and energy about the theory and theoretic combat, the ignore what DOES matter: developing your reflexes, developing power and speed, understanding differnet kinds of fighter, learning strategy, and finally getting enough experience doing that thing that you want to be an expert at (whether it is stick, knife, grappling or hand to hand sparring).

yes if you look at it you can name these ranges and distances, but why? what good does it do? if you teach your people to fight, they should know how to react to a front hand straight punch, front hand hooking punch, rear hand hooking punch, rear hand straight punch...not "punching range", because all those technique are different and need a different kind of reaction. there are to many different varieties of situations for each kind of technique, it takes such a long time to name them and make certain rules for each one. now, is your time worth wasting on those things or by learning to answer the situations?

i would rather have my students who can fight in all those ranges than students who only know how to name and demonstrate what they are.