uhh-ohh

P A Newscenter release:
http://www.pa.press.net/news/POLITICS_Indonesia_83058.html

"GURKHAS PREPARE FOR EAST TIMOR ROLE"

( Sometimes all this killing in the Almighty's name makes me wonder if we shouldn't go back to human sacrifices done ritually. Probably reduce the killing to less than 1% of what it is now. Prots killng Catholics & vice versa in Ireland. Cavalry killing (native american) Indians in the US. Hindu and Muslim in Kashmir. Jews and Arabs in Palestine. Orthodox and Muslims in Kosovo. Now Muslims killing Catholics in East Timor. And if I've forgotten anyone, ________ killing __________ in ___________. Makes you wonder what the Almighty has in store for the religious leaders when it is time for them to answer for their actions.

Reminds me of the Primary Principal who sat two kids in front of him and asked "Now do I have to get my paddle, or can you two apologize and shake hands?" They shook hands. I hate preaching love with a cocked and unlocked rifle with fixed bayonet prodding peoples center chest.)

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 11 September 1999).]
 
And their pay is honorably earned.

The pity is that politicians can't be held accountable to the same standards of honor and courage.
 
Tony Blair...

Yuck.

I was in Glasgow just long enough to learn to detest Blair almost as much as I detest Clinton.

Pretty much their version of Clinton, though probably smarter.

-Dave
 
Somewhere I posted that I though more people had been killed (tortured, maimed, mistreated in every fashion) in the name of God and religion than anything else.

Anybody care to argue the point?

Uncle Bill
 
Indonesian President says he can deal with it without outside help. And his top general goes to the press saying he wants foreign intervention? WTF?! Do they have a word for military discipline in Indonesia? How about treason?

If Puerto Rico declars independence, I sure hope the Joint Chiefs don't go around demanding UN involvement.
 
Uncle Bill,

Unfortunately, you can't argue reality.
frown.gif
Humans have been adept at large scale slaughter for far too long, and I don't think we've reached that point in our evolutionary history to stop doing it anytime soon. Human behavior never ceases to amaze (or nauseate) me.

Take care,
John Johnson
 
Berk - I read it. Thank you for putting the link up, Rusty.
 
Berk, et al.,

I read it too. Twain always did like to put things in perspective.

There may be a lot of wars fought in the name of God, but I can't think of one that has not really been motivated by economics, that is the allocation and control of resources. That is not to say that there are not oppressed peoples who have fought for their liberty. In these cases, it is the oppressors who were economically motivated.

God has been a convenient scapegoat for mankind's greed.

Richard

[This message has been edited by RHJohnson (edited 12 September 1999).]
 
Rusty,

Indonesia is not always like that. This just started about 3 years ago (thanks to Asia worst economic crisis). We used to live in harmony (this is probably debatable), and we used to ignore corrupt leaders. Who cares about them all, as long as people live happily, right? But things went the other way around when the economic worsened. For illustration: just before I went here (to study) $1 = Rp 2,000. When I got here (in approximately 2 months) $1 = Rp 21,000. It still won't recover after 3 years. And studying in the US used to be affordable, sigh...
frown.gif


In just a short time, "happy people" became "hungry people," and "hungry people" turned into "angry people." And angry people do stupid things for stupid reasons. Majorities blame minorities, and unfortunately, Christians (including Catholics) fall into this latter category. I'm an Indonesian Christian, and I can assure you though, that religious leaders (Moslems or Christians) have nothing to do with all this. The problem is no one will hear religious leaders anymore.

And, although you've never heard it, we used to be one of the fastest growing countries in the world. This, in turn made our (corrupt) leaders too laid back somehow. The crisis hit us badly, and honestly we still don't have any idea on what to do with it. All I'm saying is that our leaders were slow to act, and that's a fact.

Tallwingedgoat,

About our President. He never was in the military, unlike our previous presidents, and he's the first civilian president (the 3rd). My theory is the current government system needs time (still) to get used to civilian leaders. Treason? No, lack of coordination is more likely.

Sorry about my rant, but as an Indonesian I feel really bad about it. And I long for the old days, when we still lived in harmony and economic stability. But no love lost between me and the political leaders.


------------------
Reynaert


[This message has been edited by Frantium (edited 12 September 1999).]
 
I'm sorry for your country's troubles Frantium. I was in Bali a few months back, and it is a beautiful place with great promise.

Meanwhile, I wish the US will stop sponsoring every independence movement in the world. Not that I don't sympathize with the people of East Timor. But under the circumstances, they should be able to help themselves. Is it wise to establish a new country whose people are not willing to fight their own wars? People seeking independence should do so under their own initiative, not through an artificial power structure created by a foreign power. It's not our business to bomb people trying to keep their country together.

If the world powers had the present attitude in 1861, we wouldn't have a complete country today.

[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 12 September 1999).]
 
tallwingedgoat,

You were in Bali? God, I miss that place. But I miss Lombok even more. Did you go there? Last time I checked, the beaches were quiter than Bali and some were still untouched by civilization.


------------------
Reynaert
 
Oh almost forgot: there's nothing new about Gurkhas in Indonesia. Shortly after our Independence (just at the end of WW II), the Allies landed on our shores, bringing along some Gurkhas. The bad thing is Dutch wanted its former colony back (we were under Dutch government for almost 300 years) with the help of the Allies. Gurkhas are always held high in our memory as fierce and worthy opponents. My father still have an old rusty khukuri (I think the pronounciation is khukri?) given to him by a Gurkha soldier. If my memory serves me right, I think they were there until 1949.


------------------
Reynaert
 
Now Muslims killing Catholics in East Timor.
Click to expand...

Rusty.
The above statement make me real sad!

Is the one reported in mass media 100% correct? I don't know!

Reynaert.

Sometime whatever reported in mass media confuse me! This morning I read our local paper (Mingguan Malaysia 12/9/99) - according to the reporter there few group of militants which are doing all the killings:

1)AITARAK is the most feared group - mostly from ex commanddo of Indonesian Army (Komando Pasukan Khusus @ KOPASSUS Tentera Nasinal Indonesia @ TNI) - this group is pro Indonesian Government - they just kill anybody!

2)Darah Merah is another group of about 500 personnels.

2)BMP (Besi Merah Putih) is a force of about 600 personnels - their leader is Manuel De Souza - a commanddo - migrant from Java. This group also is pro Indonesian Government.

3)FALINTIL is another group - no 1 enemy of BMP - pro independence - force of about 1,500 personnels - their leader is Cancio Lopez De Carvalho.

They kill each other! Who are their victims - those migrants from Sulawisi (mostly Moslem)+ migrants from other province (mix of Moslem & Christian) + local Timorean (Christian)!

Rusty - Manuel De Souza & Cancio Lopez De Carvalho are not Moslem's name but Christian's name!

I guess it is purely politic - the only thing is bad newspaper man may report totally diferent things! Some time bad newspaper man are as dangerous as bad politician! - they can create war, hatred, suspicion, chaos, etc bad!

Reynaert - thanks for your facts correction in your last post - come & visit Malaysia (a Moslem country) - insyaa-Allaah! I am not going to behead you with a HI Khukuri!



[This message has been edited by mohd (edited 12 September 1999).]
 
Richard - "God has always been a convenient scapegoat for mankind's greed." Very true, but I'd also add that we all (people in general) seem to go out of our way to seek out anyone to hate and define as less than human so we can feel better than them instead of facing all religions indictments of our own faults. If we only find scapegoats to say "they are worse" it's easier to justify our pet predudices.

Frantium/Reynart - Tallwingedgoat - mohd: my apologies and regrets that what you each point out is regretably true.

 
Mohd,

I've been thinking about visiting Malaysia, just never had the chance to do so. I've been to Thailand, Brunei, and Singapore, and Malaysia is still in my list among other SEAsia countries that I'd like to visit.

And it is bad politic, like it always has been, and religions had never been part of it until 3 years ago. Like I said, we used to live in harmony.

And you're right about newspapers, but here are some quick points:

1. All those personnel figures are somewhat VERY conservative. I'm willing to bet that there are far more than that involved in the conflict.

2. Manuel De Souza is not a Java name, more like a Timorean name. He's probably a pro integration who used to live in Java.

3. If the AITARAKs are really ex-KOPASSUS, that is indeed really bad. KOPASSUS is our elite force, kinda like Indonesian version of Navy SEAL. They are trained to kill, and trained to 'train to kill.' According to my sources, there are some in the militaries right now who's unwilling to part with their former allies (pro-integration groups), let alone fight them. They had been friends for more than 20 years, and suddenly they found themselves at opposite ends.


------------------
Reynaert
 
religions had never been part of it until 3 years ago
Click to expand...

Reynaert.

QUESTIONs:
1) Why 3 years ago?
2) What was happening at that time?
3) Was that problem happened to Indonesia only?

POSSIBLE ANSWERS:
1) Before 3 years ago, our (Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand & Other ASIAN Developing Countries) economic environment were in good condition.
2) BOOOMMM! Something happened in the world economic environment! Suddenly the value of our money in world market are droping! - and droping! - and dropping! We called it "Ekonomi Gawat"! - Rupiah Indonesia going down! Ringgit Malaysia going down! Bhat Thailand going down! (Eg. Last 4 years ago US$1 = RM2.50 BUT now US$1 = RM3.825!).
3) The effect is our economic growth was distorted! shrinking! Many companies closing down! Many peoples losing jobs! Our political situation changed! it became very unstable everywhere! Peoples became restlest! They blamed Government for the failure to take fast action to stabalize the economic condition! demonstration! killing! etc ....
4) All this happening were reported in mass media - newspapers, radios & TVs - some news were reported corectly! some news were reported for certain political purposes! speculation! again .... these all confused ordinary peoples - poisoning their mentality and emosion!
5) The worst thing is our economic polarization (until now) are in accordance to races - and diferent races normally are having their own beliefs @ religins - THEN any killing can always be identified by races or by religions - TOO BAD!
6) WHAT OTHER PEOPLE SAID? In Moslem world, they blame NON-MOSLEM - In non-Moslem world, they point fingers to MOSLEM!
7) DEAR FORUMITES - Actually Moslem & Non-Moslem in our countries are VICTIMS! We are sometimes just like pawns on the "CHESS BOARD"! There are certain hidden hands that made us killing each other! hating each other!

PLEASEEEE! PITY us!

Like what Pakcik Bill told me in one of his email - OUR SOLACE IS ONLY TO ALLAH (you called him as GOD)!
 
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